Posted on 06/30/2011 12:33:48 PM PDT by Colofornian
Which Jesus? And is the Mormon jesus the ONLY Savior?
What have some of the other FR posters mentioned on this thread?
My problem is that they teach a different “word of God” (the book of Mormon) and a different Gospel, a different “Jesus” and a different God the Father. [Above My Pay Grade, post #22]
The Jesus of mormonism was a created spirit being who became one of the three mormon earth gods [AMPU, post #24]
I prefer calling your religion the LDS since Mormonsim insults Jesus and God by defining a different god and a different jesus than in the Bible. [MHGinTN, post #28]
...there is only ONE Jesus Christ and He is the Biblical Jesus, NOT the lds jesus which is not Biblical. The Biblical Christ is eternal, the lds jesus is a created being with a beginning and an end. [SVCW, post #95]
...the Jesus the Mormons preach is not Jesus Christ [Former Fetus, Post #105]
If the mormon church having the name Jesus Christ in its full name (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ) mattered a hill of beans, then the Jehovah’s Witnesses having the name Jehovah in it would matter something, too. So it doesn’t matter when people say Mormon church instead of Church of Jesus Christ of....... In the end, who cares that the name Jesus Christ is in the denom’s full title? It doesn’t mattet squat. [Laissez-faire capitalist, post #122]
Q & A on how the 'Mormon' jesus in an entirely separate entity from the One True Jesus of the Bible
Q1 Isn't the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?
A Yes. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is)
Q2 Well about what about once the Mormon "Jesus" got to the spirit baby stage? Comparing so-called "spirit babies" born to a mom goddess in heaven, what difference was there between the "Jesus spirit baby" and the supposed rest of us "spirit babies" born to such a mom goddess?
A Mere spiritual birth order--The Mormon Jesus supposedly having been birth first in some "pre-existent world"
Q3 What about the Earthly Origins of the Mormon Christ?
A * Place of birth: Jerusalem (vs. Bible pinpointing it as Bethlehem).
* The Mormon Jesus was twice made a son of God via Mary 'cause Lds say Heavenly Father was the literal paternal father of the conceived Jesus;
* The Mormon Jesus only became God's "only begotten Son" upon conception within Mary. Not so: Jesus, as the Son of God from eternity (John 17:5) -- having shared God's glory before the world was -- is God's one and only Son (John 3:18)...the rest of us are mere "adopted" sons -- if we are indeed His.
Q4 Is the Mormon "Jesus" an exalted spirit baby-become-god?
A As noted above, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. That "jesus" worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucifer. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!
This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.
Q5 Is the True Jesus Christ a 'Saved Being'?
A In contrast to the Mormon christ -- who is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad, the true Jesus Christ is eternal!
The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257)
“Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)
Please also see...
* McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)
* McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72
I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
Q6 Is the Mormon christ just one savior among many?
Yes. Admittedly this is currently publicly downplayed -- but to Lds directly -- baptism of/for the dead has been played up by Lds "prophets" from Joseph Smith to Joseph Fielding Smith to others as THE most important individual responsibility there is -- wrapping that responsibility up in their own works-driven salvation:
Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith: “But greater than all this, so far as our individual responsibilities are concerned, the greatest is to become SAVIORS, in our lesser degree which is assigned us, for the dead who have died without a knowledge of the Gospel. Joseph Smith said, ‘The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead’…It will suffice here to say that the Lord has placed upon us this responsibility of seeing that our dead receive the blessings of the Gospel. Said Joseph Smith: ‘Those saints who neglect it, in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own salvation.’” (The Way to Perfection, pp. 153-154)
Lds "prophet" John Taylor: ...we are the only people that know how to SAVE our progenitors, how to SAVE OURSELVES, and how to SAVE our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
Joseph Fielding Smith again: "... mortals have to BE SAVIORS on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Taylor again: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to BE SAVIORS FOR THEM by being baptized for them in the flesh,, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
No, "saviors of the world" are NOT plentiful per the Bible (see 1 John 4:14; John 4:42).
Q7 How were our sins atoned for? By sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane?
A Lds leaders have constantly de-emphasized the cross of Christ by pointing to the garden, where Jesus sweat blood, as the place of atonement.
Q8 Did the Mormon "jesus" really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature?
A No, if you take merely the Mormon Articles of Faith -- Article #2.
Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church:
From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)
The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]
The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."
Q9 Was the Mormon Jesus a creature before He was a 'Creator'?
A Yes. The Bible assigns Jesus as being the Creator of All Things & All Beings -- whereas the Mormon "Jesus" is Simply a spirit Creature offspring of Kolobian parents.
Compare that to the Jesus of the Bible Who created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucifer (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10).
Q10 Why do Mormons downplay the uniqueness of Jesus?
A Because of their unique doctrine that
(a) we were all eternal;
(b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus;
(c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation";
(d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people;
(e) all temple Mormons become gods.
(f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship.
The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)
Q11 Do Mormons worship Jesus?
A It depends upon which Mormon and which Mormon leaders you talk to. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie advised Lds STRONGLY in 1982 to not worship Jesus.
McConkie must have seized upon the Mormon "scripture" of D&C 20:17-19 as the key verse that would “guide” his pattern of worship once & for all: and that he should be the ONLY BEING whom they should worship ... as he quoted it to BYU students. (See Our relationship with the Lord)
Christians worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders -- like Lds "apostle" McConkie when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).
I DIRECTLY pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).
Q12 If Mormons do worship Jesus -- and if they deem Jesus a "separate" god than Heavenly Father, doesn't that mean they worship more than one god?
A Yes.
To show you the extent of confusion this has caused even among Mormon leaders, look at "apostle" McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine:
"Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
Q13 Wait a minute. Didn't you just get done telling us that McConkie advised BYU students NOT to worship Jesus in 1982?
A Indeed, he did, after saying the above in 1966! But McConkie was so confused, he would say "3" then "2" in the same book...and then eventually settled on "1" by 1982!
McConkie, on p. 848 of Mormon Doctrine, emphasized worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
Q14 Doesn't the Book of Mormon contradict even the two-god worship theory of McConkie's?
A Yes. Mormon 7:7 reads: 7And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the bworld, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to ddwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
So you can see how confusing this gets...trinitarian theology is found frequently in the Book of Mormon...including worshiping the Holy Spirit!
Q15 Doesn't it all boil down to how many gods you worship?
A Yes.
Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Joseph Smith's concocted "Nephite disciples" called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18).
And look @ what other Mormon "scriptures" say:
* The D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures [for example, the Mormon "scripture" from the Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6)]
* All this means is that either Jesus is a false god or is the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?
I testify Jesus Christ is my only Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!
Of course, you're referencing the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the FIRST 9/11 domestic terrorist acts done on American soil (Sept. 11, 1857) -- and perpetrated by the Mormons upon innocent wagon trainers passing through Southern Utah.
Perhaps you should ask MonkeyFace 'bout this. She once claimed on an FR thread that she had ancestors who didn't survive the MMM. (Of course, she didn't say which side these ancestors were on -- if they were victims or part of the perpetrators...as in the initial part of the siege the Arkansas group fired back when attacked).
Did you not say, Monkey Face, on post #92? And by the way, this is not my first time on an anti- thread. FYI.
(And, btw, I appreciate when you come into threads on Mormonism...because I know you space out entering into these conversations...we are honored by your presence...and I'm not being facetious or sarcastic)
My question to you is: Have you not left any clues there as to what you've read, etc?
Why do you assume people that love you have no clue? What? Do you think we don't pay attention to details? Do you think we are not good "listeners?" Are you not an important person in God's eyes? Why would we deem you less worthy and ignore what you have to say?
For example, I recall you telling us -- and I noted it -- that you told us how you "have several Bibles, (different versions) as well as a Quran and books on Egyptology, and Buddhism; I also have Plato, and Greek mythology; the history of Jesus; and other books too numerous to mention." (Jan. 24, 2009, FReeper thread)
Apparently, you are a widely-read Mormon.
So, you see, we do have a clue. We do respect you as an individual Mormon. I realize Mormons are all different, and I'm trying more & more not to stereotype and generalize all Mormons in assuming that they all believe the same thing -- 'cause as you know, they don't!
But again, Monkey Face, thanks for joining our discussion. I really do appreciate your interaction. And I am sincere about that.
Who's baiting people? And by that definition, are you not baiting svcw by tossing out the accusation that she hasn't digested God's Word -- in comparison to that which competes against it -- and placed it on her heart?
Really, MonkeyFace, I expect more from you. I know you've told us in the past that you don't like quotes, but somebody who is as widely read as you are should be one who respects them.
You've also told us in the past that you think "eternal progression" = becoming perfect -- something you've indicated doesn't happen on earth. But let me offer a counter perspective by citing one verse:
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14, the KJV Bible)
Here is the NIV rendering of that same verse: 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
You see, based upon this verse and others like it, the definition of a Christian is someone who is already perfect in the Father's sight through Jesus' Sacrificial death.
Heavenly Father looks at those of us who trust Christ's righteousness to cover our lack of it, and sees perfection. Our perfection? No. His Son's, Christ. That perfection is imputed to us; the apostle Paul says Jesus has become our very righteousness (see 1 Corinthians 1:30).
All svcw is doing, in pointing out 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon, is that it seems Mormons believe in perfecting themselves and effectively are trying to "bribe" the Mormon god via good deeds...as if that will change his mind about them!
ALL: see (just posted): Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]
So then when you teach the Biblical Jesus you are turning your back on the mormon jesus.
The Biblical Jesus is eternal, the mormon jesus is created.
The Biblical Jesus is sufficient, the mormon jesus only saves after “all you can do”.
It must be very difficult explaining the difference to your Sunday school students. I know its hard and must take discipline.
If we want to trash MORMONism, we can just do it on it's vast amount of records...we don’t need to bring MITT into it.
All that I can say is that a good portion of my LDS ancestors fought in the Revolution for the good side, as opposed to Tennana’s who probably fought for the bad side
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Tennessee Nana falls on the good side of manners
I PING FReepers I mention in a post
As for my FIVE honorable Loyalist ancestors I am proud of them all
I have THREE more certificates coming from the UELAC but they are held up due to the postal strikes in Canada
I have been told that the Canadian legislature has passed some type of resolution and the mail will start running again next week
Meanwhile...
My 5th gg Lt James Secord of Butlers Rangers, and his son
my 4th gg Sgt Stephen Secord of Butlers Rangers,
my 5th gg Simon De Forest, and his wife
my 5th gg Mary McGinnis De Forest and her mother
my 6th gg Sarah Kast McGinnis
are my heros and will remain so
Tennessee Nana UE
Bill: All that I can say is that a good portion of my LDS ancestors fought in the Revolution for the good side, as opposed to Tennana’s who probably fought for the bad side
Zilla: the mormon church wasn’t in existance in the 1770’s
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Yes but my Christian ancestors have all been dead dunked into the religion of Mormonism since then
You will never see the day when I’m “tied in knots” over any handle someone gives me.
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Well there was that time you didnt like being called Face or was it Monkey ???
Quoting Scripture isn’t necessary. It just means you don’t have the words in your heart to argue.
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Quoting Scripture is ALWAYS necessary.
When discussing Christianity, the only words that can be trusted are the Words of God
the only words in a persons heart should be the Words of God
THY words have I hid in my heart so that I might not sin against you Psalm 119:11
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
But what if the words in your heart are not the words of God ???
Lead me, O LORD, in your righteousness because of my enemies—make straight your way before me. Not a word from their mouth can be trusted; their heart is filled with destruction. Their throat is an open grave; with their tongue they speak deceit Psalm 5:8, 9
My advice to you is to step out in faith, you never know the effect your words may have. At the very least, you won't have to look down when Jesus asks you one day "why didn't you talk to your acquaintance"?
place marker
Many of the Christian denominations have bought into the whole separation of church from state to think it means and includes business ventures and this is why they are losing the culture war. Sad to say.
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Mormons are not Christians
And dont worry whether or not Christians are winning or losing any “culture war”
The LORD Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible said. “My Kingdom is not of this world”
Then He continued, “If is was, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews”
(But Jesus where is your Kingdom ???)
“In another place”
John 18:36
Salaries of mormon “pastors”
The 70’s receive the equivalent of 70% of the average of their previous 5 years earnings. This allows them to maintain the same standard of living that they are used to while working in their career field. They also receive perks such as business class travel which can be upgraded to first class due to their frequent flier status on various airlines. Also, they are encouraged to write books or have their journals/thoughts published and they are paid a premium in royalties for book sales.
The 12 Apostles receive, on the average, of $240,000-$360,000 per year, according to seniority, in “living allowances”. They receive the same perks as the 70 including business class travel. In addition they have individual expense accounts that are paid for by church funds. They are not held accountable for what they charge on their cards and some of the brethren are frugal and treat the funds as they should while others feel it is their “reward” and spend like a drunken sailor on leave.
The Prophet can, at his choice, live in the church-owned condominium in downtown SLC. He also receives $480,000 as a living expense. He travels by private aircraft provided by Huntsman Chemical Company and while he is away from SLC is given preferential accommodations in Marriott hotel properties- Presidential Suite or similar. He also has a church paid security staff, and VIP treatment wherever he travels.
All of the leadership have free health care paid by the church, their children and grandchildren qualify for a free education from BYU, and many get sweet deals on cars, travel, furniture, construction, etc., from companies who do business with the church. They chalk it up to the cost of doing business with the Morg.
Tithing. 85% of all tithing revenues go toward the operation of church education. BYU, BYU Hawaii, the MTC, Institutes, and Seminary fall into this category. Between 8% and 10% goes into the actual running of the church. The church has vast commercial interests that support the majority of it’s building, farming, and like business operations.
BYU-Hawaii Tithing funds support 4,000 students on Oahu.
Actual charitable giving: Only 1% of all tithes and other offerings are donated to charity. Any gifts to members are “loans” and must be paid back.
know your heart aches for not being able to live the commandments
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
If those are the TEN Commmandments of the Old Testament in the Christian Bible that you are referring too,
The inventer of Mormonism, Joey Smith, couldnt or wouldnt live any or them...
In fact he made up his own versions against them so he wouldnt have to obey the God of the Christian Bible..
What was his problem ???
Im sure you can tell us...
You have no clue what I have read, seen or experienced in my life and therefore, you are tilting at windmills
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well actually yes we do
You have told us in the past that you have run a gauntlet of verious religions off and on
You even “tried” Christianity once or twice and was “let down”
You got deep into a religion of Eastern mystersism ...Hinduism or such like
You tried Judaism or started out there
Your serial flirtations with Mormonism somewhat satisify you at present because you can use your “superior experience “ to bash Christians in these threads with the falsehoods from your “highet ground”
However you are still searching for peace and thats only found in one place...the LORD Jesus Christ...the Prince of Peace
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7
The Lies Mormons Tell, #23
The Lies Mormons Tell #37
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