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To: GAB-1955

Honestly, if you look at the numbers, and draw a line down the middle, if such a line can be drawn, there are more Christians on the side of the Democrats and Socialists in the U.S. than Christians on the side of Conservatism.

So if you have to render a verdict on what Christianity leads people to, it would seem that Christianity, based on the real numbers, leads people not to Conservatism, but to its opposite, socialism. Unfortunately. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.


25 posted on 06/29/2011 10:40:50 PM PDT by NYCslicker
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To: NYCslicker

There are those who say they are Christians, and those who are Christians. It’s easy enough to affiliate oneself with a church whose tenets you do not believe and attend twice a year or not at all. However, if you have ever encountered Christ as He is, you will follow Him, no matter how imperfectly.

Of the believing Christians, more would be small c conservative.

C.S. Lewis pointed out that a truly Christian society would offend both socialist and conservative, in that there would be a order and hierarchy in society, but no one would lack. Unfortunately, we are not going to get a Christian society in a world filled with fallen people; conservative values of property and family do the least harm and some good. What does the Tenth Commandment say but the respect other people’s property? What does the Fourth say but to honor your parents? Does not the Apostle Paul and Peter say that authorities are to be respected?

It’s not all “share the wealth or we’ll share it for you”.


28 posted on 06/30/2011 4:16:15 AM PDT by GAB-1955 (I write books, love my wife, serve my nation, and believe in the Resurrection.)
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To: NYCslicker
So if you have to render a verdict on what Christianity leads people to, it would seem that Christianity, based on the real numbers, leads people not to Conservatism, but to its opposite, socialism. Unfortunately. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.

Good observation. It's ironic that a secular philosophy such as Marxism embraces many aspects of Christian philosophy, with the supremely fatal flaw, of course, of attempting to impose its tenets in an overtly authoritarian manner, justified, of course, by the ostensible collective will and interests of the People.

Imposing virtue is a perversion of Christian tenets, and is antithetical to free will itself. As author Dinesh D'Souza correctly noted, when the State coerces virtue from the people, then of course it is not virtue at all.

Such a system is neither sustainable nor practical, and history has shown that it invariably leads to Tyranny and murder. Yet many well-meaning people think that it just hasn't been implemented properly yet, and eventually we will get it right someday if we just keep tweaking it.

Of course, such nonsense is simply boob bait for bubbas...

30 posted on 06/30/2011 5:28:08 AM PDT by sargon (I don't like the sound of these "boncentration bamps")
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To: NYCslicker
So if you have to render a verdict on what Christianity leads people to, it would seem that Christianity, based on the real numbers, leads people not to Conservatism, but to its opposite, socialism. Unfortunately. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.

I disagree that Christianity leads people to socialism. But it is very fair to say that many socialists are Christians, especially in Europe and increasingly so in the US. To me that points out less of an affinity b/n Christianity and socialism, and more of the reality that Christianity stands apart from any ideology.

I am an advocate of free-market capitalism in the realm of economies and representative, constitutional republics n the realm of political system. But I am not unaware that there are weaknesses even on that side of the spectrum. I would argue that responsible, individual freedom is a Christian value based in God's choice to grant his creatures free will and therefore I prefer economic and political systems that allow for the greatest exercise of responsible individual freedom. Socialism, communism and all forms of government that seek to manage and control every last detail of individual lives are destructive of the freedom of the individual.

The Barmen Declaration, written by Karl Barth and a group of dissenting Christians in the early days of Hitler contains this very interesting statement: "We reject the false doctrine, as though the State, over and beyond its special commission, should and could become the single and totalitarian order of human life, thus fulfilling the Church's vocation as well."

So Rand argued persuasively and correctly, I believe, on behalf of responsible, individual freedom and free-enterprise. Good for her. But unless that freedom and responsibility is grounded in something higher than individual human will it is destined to fail and will devolve into a power game.

Jacques Ellul, a French sociologist and theologian had this to say about the nature of power and Christ. "What constantly marked the life of Jesus was not nonviolence but in every situation the choice not to use power. This is infinitely different."

Ideologies are implemented and maintained by power. For the most part is is human power, human wisdom and human power. What many on the right and the left fail to see is that while they rightfully should struggle to make the world a better place (or "tolerable" as Ellul would put it), the Kingdom of God is not built by human hands or human ideologies.

39 posted on 06/30/2011 10:42:52 AM PDT by newheart (When does policy become treason?)
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