Posted on 06/25/2011 11:16:05 PM PDT by Cronos
They are attendees, and may be on the church attendance roll, but are not members of the church. When they give their Profession of Faith and are baptized it is often referred to as “joining the church.” They can fully participate in the services but are not to take The Lord’s Supper (communion). Membership can be moved by letter (the church where they previously were a member sending notice to the new church), or by Statement of Faith to affirm they have accepted Christ and were baptized from another SBC church. It depends on the individual church if this will be accepted from another denomination - some are not comfortable doing this but others will if the faith tradition has a similar doctrine of Believer’s Baptism.
I am sorry to hear that.
Interesting. I've never been to an SBC service so I had no understanding of it. That actually doesn't sound too different from the rules for membership in a Catholic church, aside from the “reaching the age of accountability” clause before you're eligible for baptism. Of course Catholics have that too, except it's used for receiving the holy spirit at a confirmation ceremeony.
Actually I’ve never heard of that age of accountability being a specific ‘clause’...just as something discussed / debated when it comes to a theological point. There is no specific age requirement that I know of...but an effort is made to confirm the person understands what it is to become a Christian and accept Christ and they are not just going forward with a Profession of Faith just to be doing it or just because they feel they are “supposed to”, saw somebody else do it and just wanted to do the same thing, etc.
While there is not infant baptism / christening ceremony for a newborn, there is a Baby Dedication ceremony wherein the family and new baby are prayed over by the pastor and the church family, and the parents pledge to raise the child in a Christian home as Christian parents...but there are no godparents.
I was a member of a SBC-affiliated Church for a while so let me see if I can help you get a better understanding of what's going on.
First, while the SBC does not practice infant baptism, that does not mean that they will not baptize a child who is over the age of accountability and who has made a profession of faith.
If anyone comes to a SBC Church and makes a public profession of faith that Christ died to atone for their sins, then they will be baptized. The pastor and elders of the Church will speak with the person, to try to ensure that what they are doing is a genuine profession of faith and not just an emotional response to the Gospel. There has to be an understanding that this isn't something that is based in emotion, even though emotions are going to be present.
Furthermore, baptism and Church membership is not the same thing within the SBC. You can be baptized within a SBC Church and become a member of another denomination. Baptism grants you membership in "The Church", aka the Bride of Christ, but membership in a local body of believers isn't automatic or even required by the SBC.
Finally, membership in the local SBC and attendance at that same Church are measured separately. Every SBC Church, as well as most other Baptist, Pentecostal and Independent Church that I've ever attended had a plaque somewhere that listed things like members on the roll, members attending, total attendance, offerings and other Church business data. That family with 8 kids under 18 which you mentioned above would not be counted as members if and until they asked to be accepted into the local Church and were accepted by the Church. Until then, they would be counted as attending but not members.
You raise a good point here RW, the SBC Church I was a member of did this as well as my home Church, which was Freewill Baptist. The exact details may be a little different, but the general consensus is that when a family brings their infant to the Church to be pledged (we Freewills called it dedicated back to the Lord, but it's the same thing), the local Church is asked to care for and guide the child's development within the faith while the parents see to his or her proper upbringing. Some, but not all, Churches also anoint the child with oil at this time but that seems to be a mark of the older, more Fundamentalist Churches.
Just for the record, I know this because I was dedicated back by my parents and I've had the entire event explained to me by my father, as well as the logic behind the actions.
While I agree that every Christian Church, no matter the denomination, should run it's own school for the members' children, there are some instances where it's literally not an option due to lack of members.
Take my home Church for example. When I was growing up, we had 120 members on the roll but only about 50 or 60 that were ever actively involved with the Church functions. The tithes were, literally, collected and recorded for all to see and usually only averaged around $160 per week. That barely covered the expenses that the Church was required to pay (lights, water, etc.) and we didn't pay the Pastor, much less a Church secretary. Every position within the Church, from Pastor to Secretary to Treasurer, was unpaid.
It was tight, but we still saw the Gospel preached, the sick were visited and prayed for and souls saved from Hell on a regular basis. I'd say that we did okay with what we were given, all things considered. It would have been great to have a School too, but that kind of money wasn't given so it wasn't an option.
Am I correct that you have a building? Yes, you would have extra expenses in heating, cooling, and utilities. Homeschoolers repeatedly report that curriculum costs from $100 to $500 a year per child. $500 would be extremely generous and would buy a LOT of goodies.
So?...With volunteers the members and the children's families couldn't find the money to cover these very **minimal** expenses? Really?
I'll give you an example:
My husband and I like Mountain Dew. ( Yes, it is a bad habit.) It costs us about $2.50 a day to maintain this bad habit. That adds up to $913.50 a year for a bad habit. Just making this **one** tiny change in our lives would pay the expenses for FOUR, FIVE, SIX, or MORE children.
Sorry...What I see in you post are excuses and all across American Christians are making the same excuses.
One more thing: If collections are a mere $160 a week, then your members are not tithing. They are merely giving a donation.
They're not excuses, that's the situation as it stands. This isn't a Catholic Church where the decision is made by someone up the chain and the decision is passed down, this is a Freewill Baptist Church and the entire membership votes on items. Like it or not, if the money isn't there, it just isn't there. I've seen the books and the funds for that kind of an undertaking just doesn't exist.
One more thing: If collections are a mere $160 a week, then your members are not tithing. They are merely giving a donation.
So now you know what most of the people in my Church make a week? Let me lay it out for you as quickly as I can.
Like I said before, there are roughly 120 people on the roll at my home Church. Of that number, only about 50 or so regularly attend. Of that number, only about 8 or 10 are actually actively employed now. Most, about 20 or so, are widows who have never worked outside the home and who now live on a fixed income. Of the members who aren't widows or actively employed, the vast majority are now retired or were laid off when the EPA starting putting the squeeze on the coal mining industry.
Furthermore, those who are actively employed are not employed in high paying jobs, but are instead averaging around $40k per year and are trying to raise their families on that, so you tell me where this money is going to come from? The services which are being rendered at the Church, such as accounting work, secretarial work, building and grounds maintenance as well as cemetery upkeep, are being done for free as a part of the members tithes, but I guess you missed that part. You're little snide remark about not tithing but merely giving a donation was rude, out of place and not called for.
Regarding voting: I have a similar problem with my church. We, as members, do not vote. Although it is a small denomination we do have leadership that makes decisions for the various congregations. I have not been able to get the leaders to see the danger of sending children into godless, socialist, and collectivist run schools. You, too, may be having problems getting your members to understand how toxic the godless government school environment is. I think there are two problems. The first is that many of our leaders are married to government teachers and school employees and many of the members are teachers, spouses of teachers, or have family that are school employees. The second problem is that they are addicted to the free babysitting that the government schools provide. For these two reasons they **refuse** to open their eyes.
Regarding cost: Homeschoolers have proven that they can and **do** educate their children on pennies a day. Yes, **pennies**! I did it, so I know that it is possible. Ok....I accept that your church and its members can not afford a few pennies a day per child. It's a leap but I trust that you are honest and I will believe you.
Regarding tithing: Perhaps we have different definitions of tithing. In our denomination we pay tithing **before** any other expense. So...If a social security disability check is $600/ month then the tithing would be $60. After tithing is paid it is amazing how other bills do manage to get paid. We have many stories of miracles regarding tithing. I accept that other denominations are not so strict in their definitions.
Finally....I honestly believe that if Christians fully understood the danger of sending children into the godless government indoctrination camps, and truly had faith and trusted in the Lord, they would find a way to get their congregation's children out of these pits of secular ignorance. I am exasperated with my own congregation that they do not understand this.
Second, I suspect that since homeschooled children are not really seen very much, most of the people don't think of it as a viable alternative. The local Christian School is held up as the true alternative to government schools but because of the amount of money involved in tuition, a good portion of parents in the community can't afford to do that either. I agree that it's a mindset more than an actual handicap, but sometimes a mindset is more of a hurdle to overcome than any physical or monetary obstacle.
Finally, and this touches back on the first problem, most parents here are under the assumption that, while the schools have changed some since they were a kid, it couldn't have changed that much due to how isolated the area has been historically. As I have several close friends who are not Christians who work for the Schools, all I can say is I think they'd be shocked and it all originated when former Congressman Rick Boucher had fiber optic lines installed into all the school systems in this end of Virginia, bringing technology and the internet into the area. Parents aren't fully aware of the problems which have cropped up because of this action.
One other thing that I would like to point out, which I just realized may be causing some confusion, is that when I refer to my home Church, I'm referring to the Church I grew up in, not the Church I attend now. My home Church, which is also my family Church as I'm literally related to everyone who is a member there, is where I feel most at "home" because I know the people better. The Church I attend now may eventually become my new home, but I've only recently begun attending it and I'm still feeling out the fellowship there.
Regarding tithing: Perhaps we have different definitions of tithing. In our denomination we pay tithing **before** any other expense. So...If a social security disability check is $600/ month then the tithing would be $60. After tithing is paid it is amazing how other bills do manage to get paid. We have many stories of miracles regarding tithing. I accept that other denominations are not so strict in their definitions.
I wanted to touch back on this part, as I've had this same conversation before and would like to give you the other side of the coin, so to speak. I used to believe as you do, and for the most part still do, but age and experience has forced me to modify my stance slightly. When the Scriptures speak of tithing, it's usually understood that it implies giving 10% of your increase back to the Lord as an offering. While today we look at that 10% as 10% of our pay, it was pointed out to me that the tithe was on 10% of all aspects of a person's life, so it could include offering a portion of their time to the Church as well.
Furthermore, it was also pointed out to me that God expects us to be wise stewards of our resources and expects us to be productive members of society as well. That ties into tithing in that, since God asks us to tithe 10% of our increase and yet still be wise stewards over our resources, we can give a portion of our time as part of our tithe so that we can meet our debt obligations. I'm not disputing that God will honor those who tithe even when they can't see how they are going to make their payments, as that shows a great deal of faith in God to provide, but I am saying that God honors those who desire to obey His commands as well.
Good point! Although it is a principle that is not stressed in our denomination, my husband and I do agree. Tithing includes everything, including one’s **time**!
Cheers!
If Christians were willing to tithe their time to teach the congregation's children, don't you think that every child in this nation ( not just the those of the congregation) could have access to a tuition-free God-centered education?
Also....Dont’ you think homeschoolers have proven that large Prussian-style, prison-like school settings are completely unnecessary and are actually harmful (besides being very expensive)?
What if members were willing to teach children in their own homes or go to the home of another member?
And....Why do we feel that the typical 8:30am to 3:00 pm schedule is the only possible model? Why not instruction early in the morning, late afternoon, evenings, or Saturdays?
In my denomination, I believe that our leadership simply does not understand how toxic it is to send children into godless schools. They feel absolutely no urgency. It is very frustrating.
By the way....My husband and I did help tutor the Spanish speaking children for our denomination. We did it for about a year. I finally had to give it up. It was like aiming a water pistol at a raging forest fire. These kids needed to be removed from the government schools and placed in an educational program that would systematically and rationally rectify that damage done by the government schools.
My husband and I started a cub scout program for the Spanish speaking congregation. My husband is cub master and I am the Wolf leader. We have done this for the past three years and we feel that we really are making a difference in these boys’ lives. I also give piano lessons to the children over 11 years old. At the moment I have two very faithful students.
I think that public education was one of the chief cornerstones that was laid for the foundation of a new government which was to replace our Republic. When education of the children was removed from the parents sphere of responsibility and placed into the sphere of responsibilities of the State, we began our slide to where we are today. Everything about public education, from it's funding to it's atmosphere to it's product, is based upon a Statist world view which is anathema to Judaic-Christian values, which places the focus upon family first instead of State.
I agree with you that Christians have no business being involved with this system, but getting others to see the truth isn't easy.
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