Posted on 06/14/2011 5:05:57 PM PDT by TaraP
It's been 1500 years since there has been a rabbinically approved sacrifice to take place in Israel and the rabbis did approve a Gentile who trained under the leadership of selected rabbis to perform the sacrifice of two turtledoves recently in Israel. The ceremony took place in the Jordan Valley near Jericho as a number of rabbis watched to make certain all Levitical laws were kept in the offering of these two doves.
There are a number of religious Jews that have been preparing for the building of the temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem who believe that Jews need to become accustomed once again to the offering of animals for the sacrifices called for when the temple is once again standing in Jerusalem.
A rabbinically approved sacrifice being performed in Israel is tangible evidence that Bible prophecy will be fulfilled. Since the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD there has not been an opportunity for Jews to offer any of the required sacrifices called for under Levitical law.
Over the last 2000 years there have been several occasions in different parts of the world where rabbis would approve the offering of animals in sacrifice but nothing compared to the days when the temple was standing in Jerusalem.
Recently a Gentile, one trained by a number of rabbis, performed a sacrifice of two turtledoves in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea, the first rabbinically approved sacrifice in 1500 years.
This is a part of a program to prepare the Jewish people for the restoration of the sacrificial system that is called for in the first 7 chapters in the book of Leviticus. Daniel 9:27 reveals that the sacrificial system will be restored when there is a temple in Jerusalem. Even the Messiah's temple described in Ezekiel 40-46 calls for sacrifices to be restored as a part of daily Jewish life.
There will be two temples in the future for the Jewish people, one in the Tribulation period and then another in the time of the Millennial Kingdom of the future. In both of these temples, sacrifices will be made. In fact for the next temple all preparations have been made and its ready to be built in Jerusalem even right now.
A sacrifice made in Israel recently is indeed evidence that Bible prophecy will be fulfilled.
Well put.
Don’t blame you a bit.
After their reply to what I did manage to post . . . I felt rather disgusted with such cheekiness. None are so blind as those who WILL NOT see.
Their blood is on their own hands, at this point.
Smugness will not feel so comforting at some point.
I meant to say . . . one less Vatican Cultist who’s pontifications, perspectives and attitudes are worth the least bother of a reaply.
THANKS MUCH.
LOOKS GOOD. Will probably put it up here for those interested in the truth.
LUBSIS
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
The History of the Pre-trib Rapture
Introduction
As more and more people embrace the doctrines of the Reformation, many of these people fail to discard the errors that some of the Reformers were unable to discover in their limited lifetimes.
Many of the Covenant Calvinists embrace the Roman Catholic ideology of amillennialism. Furthermore, many within this tradition, and even within the premillennial family, assert that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture did not develop until the 1800s. Such statements are terribly inaccurate.
I agree with Dr. Tim Lahaye, Dr. Richard Mayhue, and Dr. Wayne Brindle when they state: "The timing of the rapture is not a cardinal doctrine that should divide God's people, but those who interpret the Bible literally find many strong reasons to believe that the rapture will be pre-tribulational" (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, 289).
No matter whether one believes in a pre-trib rapture or not, there are historical statements that verify that people have indeed believed this teaching before the 1800s.
The Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial
It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:
Papias (60-130)
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
Barnabas (100)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
Irenaeus (120-202)
Tertullian (145-220)
Hippolytus (185-236)
Cyprian (200-250)
Lactantius (260-330)
From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.
Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly." This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.
"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.
This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.
Summary:
Three Clear Summary Points from the Early Church Fathers' Teachings Two Pretribulational Teachings in the Medieval Church
"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again: " See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."
Scholars Dr. Ice and James Stitzinger provide some other insights as to what this theologian taught concerning the end times. In many respects this theologian taught many truths that are common among the Dispensational system of interpretation today. They note that Ephreum "develops an elaborate biblical eschatology, including a distinction between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. It describes the imminent rapture, followed by a three-and-half-year-long Great Tribulation under the rule of Antichrist, followed by the coming of Christ, the defeat of the Antichrist, and the eternal state. His view includes a parenthesis between the fulfillment of Daniel's sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks (Daniel 9:24-27)." Keep in mind that this reference is 1500 years before the time that many critics of the pre-trib view claim this doctrine developed. Many falsely advocate that the idea of a pre-trib rapture view developed in 1800s through J.N. Darby or through some sects and mystics. Such a view does not hold water, though it is popular in many circles.
2. Brother Dolcino (d. 1307)
....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....
1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:
2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:
1. Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)
Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:
For example, I once visited a Reformed Baptist Church in Greenville. It was a question and answer time session hosted by two pastors connected to the fellowship. Students from North Greenville College, Furman Univeristy, and other colleges, universities, and churches were present. A sincere man raised his hand and asked this question: "Why will no one teach on the book of Revelation and prophecy anymore? Can you give me a biblical answer to the issue of Bible prophecy." I thought it was a great question and I was interested to hear a biblically based answer from Scripture by the two pastors. Sadly, what was given in reply caused several of us in the room to have a serious concern for the pastors answering questions. Instead of providing an answer to the student's question the two pastors took the next ten minutes to simply attack the idea of a pre-trib rapture view. These two men did not take the time to provide for a biblical defense of their view. All they did was attack the pre-trib view as a modern invention that developed in the 1800s. After they attacked such a view, with little to no defense of their own view, I called the men on the carpet for a failure to study history and to defend their own view biblically. I asked them about several men who held this view before the 1800s, such as with Ephraem and others I'll discuss below. They had no reply to the information I gave to them.
One scholar has found a quote that relates to the teachings and disciples of Dolcino. Dolcino and his followers held to some form of rapture view whereby people were translated to heaven before the time of judgment on the Antichrist. The teaching is as follows:
"Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ"
Teachers and Theologians after the Protestant Reformation Who Believed in a Pre-trib Rapture
At the time of the Protestant Reformation a major shift in how one interpreted the Bible caused the church to adjust in her views on the end times. Predominately under the Roman Catholic Church the Bible was interpreted allegorically. Scripture dealing with end times, prophetic texts, for the most part suffered from the hands of those who would not take the text literally. However, as the Reformation grew and as people began to return to a literal interpretation of the Bible the more people shifted to see that Christ was going to come back to earth to rule and reign. Many of the Puritans and Pilgrims, the 2nd generation of the Reformation movement, adopted the idea that not only was Christ going to reign on the earth but he would also translate his church saints before the awful time of his outpouring of wrath. Several of these scholars in some form or another held to a pre-tribulational rapture position.
1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica
Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.
2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)
Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.
3. Peter Jurieu (1687)
Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon.He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.
4. John Gill (1748)
Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:
5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University
Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:
END TIMES DREAMS VISIONS PROPHECY PING LIST PING
TO HISTORY OF PREMILLENIALISM
IN POST JUST ABOVE.
OOOPS FORGOT TO INCLUDE
THE END TIMES, DREAMS, VISIONS, PROPHECY LIST IN THE PING ABOVE.
ALSO HERE’S A WONDERFUL NEW ‘Word’ from The Lord via Susan O’Marra:
I Am The Giver Of All Wisdom
Child, I am the Giver of all Wisdom. I do not need a counselor, for all Council is found within Me. I need not any man teach Me, for I am the teacher of all men.
I speak to man in various ways, but in every way, I can be seen, understood, and known. It is man that refuses to see, that refuses to understand, and that refuses to know that I Am.
I created the earth for man. I created all things to be in harmony with itself and with each other. But this was severed forever, so the quest for knowledge began, and this has led to the destruction of all that was life, and harmony, and purity, and truth.
Such is the result of rejection of Me. This you see all around you. With every generation it progressively worsens and darkens as men plunge themselves into their pursuits and passions instead of towards Me.
I have wisdom available to each generation, but few avail themselves to lay hold of Me. This is why you see the severity unfold with each successive day. But this is not Wisdom’s way.
I have called you to not walk according to the ways and manner of this world. I have called you to set your eyes upon Me and upon the things that I have both spoken to you and have shown to you. I have called you to walk with Me. My Wisdom is to be found by you daily as you walk with Me in this earth.
My Council shall forever stand, even though the days and years ahead shall increasingly deteriorate as will the hearts and minds of men. But you shall stand in My Council, as shall all that are Mine. You shall know what to do as I deal with the hearts of men, and as I realign.
There are many changes ahead. Many things that will cause much fear, but not to those of Mine who draw near. It is a time to walk in My Ways and to walk in My Wisdom. It is a time to delight yourself in your God. For I know all things and I uphold all things. I shall reveal Myself to you each passing day, and you shall surely know that I mean what I say. My Words shall all come to pass.
Great are the days ahead for My People!
For I have not only stored up Wisdom for you, but also My Goodness for you.
I have stored up My Love for you, and My Provision for you.
I have stored up My Strength and My Patience for you, as well as My Purposes.
I have everything that you need.
I Am everything that you need!
I am well able to cause you to inherit the earth, even as this Age passes away, and you shall know what to do everyday.
You shall guide many along the way.
You are to keep My Faith, to keep My Words, and to keep Covenant with Me with all that you meet and see.
For you are My Image to all that you will encounter. You are My hands and My feet in the earth.
You are My Body, wholly purchased, and of great worth!
I have long desired this hour when My People would not only give birth, but also when I could walk and live through them in full measure!
Oh, the Hour of Wisdom has begun, when multitudes shall run across the earth in search of her, but who shall indeed find?
Those who sincerely seek My Heart and My Mind!
The lowly ones that have learned to surrender to Me,
these are the Ones that shall walk victoriously!
Oh, how wide and how vast and how deep are the Councils of Mine,
opened to the seekers that have learned how to dine.
I shall indeed open every seed,
and out of My seeds I shall meet every need.
Nothing is wasted,
nothing is left over, but divinely tailored
to each path and to each hand.
Watch as I greatly expand
across every land.
My Hand shall prove,
and My Hand shall remove,
but My Hand shall also erect
and shall re-connect.
For I shall remove that which was, and I shall build that which is to be,
and men shall see the utter rearranging of their history,
and they shall see the unfolding of My Mystery.
All things shall pass away as My Councils reveal
that which lies even deeper still.
To the very depths I will go,
and the old foundations shall
crumble and tumble
as I realign
and unfold My New Design.
It shall not be made after the manner of men,
for every council of the human heart shall fail.
Every plan and plot and scheme
will all seem as fleeting as their dreams.
Nothing shall stand nor be able to take root, except for that which is grounded and rooted within Me. I am the Sustainer of all things. All life comes forth from within Me and through Me.
That which gives birth from My Wisdom shall have eternal and lasting value. That which is birthed from man’s reason and from the human heart shall quickly pass and depart as the earth waxes ever dim and the foundations quake and stumble.
I alone shall stand, and so shall those who have placed their trust in Me. For, I, Wisdom give Light and Life to all that lay hold of Me.
Trust in Me. Lean not to your plans and ways. Search Me out and walk with Me the length of your days. I shall sustain you and guide you and live through you till the end.
Let not your heart be troubled, for you live within My Light,
and you were born for the greater Fight.
You must strengthen your heart in Me,
and know that I am your Liberty.
I have come to set men free.
Even to the masses this is still a mystery,
but no longer, for there is no other salvation but through Me.
This shall be very plain as the days ahead go by.
For multitudes shall run and seek and cry out, “why?”
Every false idol must fall and every hardened heart must be broken,
so that My Wisdom, as true bread, can be broken.
So shall Wisdom come, to those who seek Me as their life.
But to those who reject it, it shall be a very sharp knife!
Woe to those who reject My Truth and who scoff at My Wisdom offered to them;
for famine of soul and spirit and of the flesh shall follow them.
Blessed shall they be,
those who sincerely seek and follow after Me,
for their eyes shall be opened
and they shall walk joyously after Me.
I shall manifest My Kingdom through them liberally.
—Susan O’Marra
06-17-11
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
In order to be a dispensationalist, one has to hold to a literal approach of interpreting the Bible. When compared to other interpretative approaches, dispensationalists take the text more literally.
Our error, our crime is taking the word of God literally...
Our mistake is that we believe what God said...Who but an imbecile could make a charge like that...
I mean, 'we don't believe what God said was literal, so we don't have a clue what He's talking about'...But follow us, we are the real Church...OMG, how ludicrous...
If these verses I posted aren't literal, what in the world could they possibly mean??? These unliteralists don'at have an answer...
And why would God waste his time inspiring over 30,000 verses that were written if they don't mean anything???
It's interesting to note that the Rapture was considered to be iminent in the church up until the time that the church split and one side turned to Pagan Rome along with the Roman military who set out to kill those who opposed it's existance and burned their scriptures...
Thank You Quix, for your post by Susan. It brought me joy and peace.
The law of God does not allow for such inconsistencies and those who revel in such inconsistencies are, in Revelation 3 14:19, vomited from the mouth of God. Perhaps one so disposed to these sinful dispositions and inconsistencies would do well to renounce sin and REPENT as instructed by John the Baptist.
What is needed is a firm examination of conscience to ferret out the sinful aspects of life.
This, really, is what the entire division between the different denominations and Churches boils down too. It's not limited to just Dispensation Theory versus Covenant Theory or Grace versus Works Theology or even the Amillennial / Premillenial debate. It's a matter of determining if God is able to make certain that His word was transmitted to us in it's entirety and without errors or if man is somehow able to thwart the will of God in the matter, either knowingly or unknowingly. That, more than anything else, is what's at the root of the debate over how to interpret the Bible.
Until we deal with this, these debates are going to continue. Since they've continued now for almost 2000 years, I don't really hold out hope that it will ever be settled until Christ Himself settles it for us.
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. - Jhn 6:58 KJV
Since you take the part about body and blood literally, do you take the part about living for ever literally? If so, let's ask Peter if he really was the First Pope. I mean, obviously he took part in this sacrament so he's alive now isn't he? Or is that too literal for your little troll mind to comprehend?
Thanks for all you do here, bronx2. The thoughts you share about Scripture and His Church are refreshing and most welcome.
In other words, I would suggest that you research it for yourself and not rely on biased opinions from either side. Those involved so far, on both sides, have their own bias which colors the way that information is perceived, just as I do, so your best option is to seek out the info yourself and draw your own conclusions.
So you’re admitting that he’s a Religion Troll? Good to know that the Catholic Caucus here encourages such hateful, divisive behavior to go on in the Body of Christ.
Since you guys take John 6:51-57 literally, I want to talk to Peter to find out if he really was the first Pope. After all, John 6:58 says that he will live for ever after taking part in Communion, so where is he?
Here's the passage just in case you missed it.
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. - Jhn 6:58 KJV
Since you're asking that as a question, the answer is no.
Good to know that the Catholic Caucus here encourages such hateful, divisive behavior to go on in the Body of Christ.
I can't help whatever conclusions you jump to.
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