The Perpetual Virginity of Mary - Brothers and Sisters of Christ?

http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/perpetualvirginity.htm ^ | Denis Keohane

[Turtlepower]

I’m not the one that got your post pulled so need to argue with me...I’m just pointing out this topic is not off limits.

[lastchance]

The Orthodox also believe in her perpetual virginity.

[lastchance]

To a non Catholic or non Orthodox the question should by logic be one of Adiophora. That so many sects argue so fiercely against the doctrine is a puzzle.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It was pulled due to the reference to a particular body part.

Just out of curiosity. Which body part? :-)

[lastchance]

I think the word and the whole concept offends most of Hollywood.

[lastchance]

The you know I can’t say body part one of the blush, blush, stammer, lady bits.

[Ransomed]

Most Christians believe that Mary was ever virgin. It would be interesting to know who was the first person after the Reformation to write about rejecting it. I tried to google that once but I couldn’t find anything, I have sad search skills.

Freegards

[DManA]

I didn’t mean they claimed exclusivity on the doctrine.

[DManA]

Not that it’s a poll question but I would guess a majority do not believe that.

[lastchance]

Thanks for the clarification.

[what's up]

For the record, I thought your post appropriate. It brought the debate down to a pragmatic level by laying out just what virginity is...some consider it a holy state, others such as yourself purely a physical state.

I wonder what other word the mod would have preferred you use other than the scientific one? There are other, less scientific ones, but that would be the crass way to go.

[SoothingDave]

It depends if your poll is of American Christians or worldwide Christians.

Also, if we speak historically, there is no comparison. Denying Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is an historical newcomer.

[what's up]

Denying Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is an historical newcomer

Not so. Victorinus did not believe in Mary's perpetual virginity...nor did Tertullian.

[Ransomed]

It would depend on who has more members, Orthodox + “Oriental” Orthodox + Catholics + some other smaller groups vs. Protestants + various nonDenominational Christians. I think Orthodox + Catholic alone has more, maybe Catholic by itself has more.

And yes, the truth of the matter, or any matter, isn’t dependant on how many people believe it or don’t.

Freegards

[Sioux-san]

I have two children. I refer to my daughter as my first born. If she were my only child, that’s what I would say, unless or until there were more children. This is getting stupid - I’m done.

[Cronos]

Most Christians believe this -- all those in the Apostolic Church (Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians, Assyrians etc), plus many Anglicans etc. -- fully about 2/3rd of Christians

however, as ransomed pointed out, this is not a numbers game

What is more relevant is how long have we believed this? And the answer is that we have believed this since the time of the Early Christians who were I think a little closer to the time when this happened than folks 1800 years later

The 3 main reformers: Luther, Calvin and Zwingli all believed this.

however, the third and fourth and fifth and sixth generations of reformatters slowly chipped away at all aspects of Christian belief

[Cronos]

I'm not pointing it out as a sign of infallibility. Rather I am pointing out that all Christians right from the Early Christians to the first and second generation reformers (Luther and Calvin) believed this, just as it was handed down to them

For folks in 2011 to dispute what Early Christians believed is a bit strange -- those guys were closer in time than we were...

[SoothingDave]

It was stupid when you started it. “First born” has a meaning in Scripture and it does not require that there be a second born.

There are better arguments against Mary’s perpetual virginity. I suggest you choose one of them next time. This argument you chose is puerile.

[Cronos]

yes, this is not the core doctrine of our belief which is

Nicene Creed

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.  We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.  We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The core of our belief is on Jesus. This is just secondary, a belief that the Early Christians believed and handed down to us.

The problem comes when people in 2011 say they know better than those Early Christians -- this leads to errors like the voting for gay marriages or Harold Camping etc.

[what's up]

I'm not pointing it out as a sign of infallibility.

Obviously, however, you were pointing it out to try to convince Protestants that because the Reformers believed, they might believe it too.

But Protestants don't think of their leaders as infallible, unlike the Catholics who believe the church fathers' words have the same weight as Scripture.