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To: Cronos
So, Jesus telling John to take care of Mary as his Mother tells you that He had no other brethren with Mary as their mother.

No, it doesn't. It tells us that Jesus did not think them able to care for Mary, their mother. They could have been too young, too rash, too unbelieving. His brothers probably were miles away from the crucifixion. They came to belief late.

712 posted on 06/20/2011 7:47:43 AM PDT by madison10
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To: madison10
Madison -- do you know the Middle Eastern Culture of today? Or the Jewish culture at the time of Christ?

This was a traditional one where parents, grandparents etc. lived together and it was the duty of the FAMILY to take care of their widows etc.

Mary was a widow. Jesus Christ was her Son

If the eldest son dies, then the next older son has the responsibility to take care of the mother. If no sons then the next older daughter

But you do not now in Semitic societies nor especially then in Semitic societies give the responsibility to your friend if you have any other blood siblings

That is so against whatever a traditional Jew would have done, it is unthinkable for Christ, a true Jew to have done that.

Whether they were "rash or unbelieving" doesn't matter, they still have their responsibility and the eldest son can't "skip over" them.

They could not have been "too young" because Jesus was 33 and the coming of age was 13, so are you saying Jesus had teenage siblings?

You do realise that your line of thinking ultimately leads to the same false dichtomy as Dan Brown?

715 posted on 06/20/2011 9:19:52 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: madison10
Let's repeat -- Jewish culture in 33 AD is quite different from the atomic families in the USA today.

If an eldest son dies, the other children HAD to take care of their widowed mother -- check out even traditional societies like India today -- the same thing.

The Eldest Son takes care of the mother, then the next eldest son, etc. then the daughters -- in order. To bypass this is not something Jesus would do. Ergo, he had no other brothers or sister by Mary.

In a traditional society like that of Israel 2000 years ago, like the Semitic world today, the eldest son does not give the custody of the widowed mother to a stranger if there are younger brothers or sisters.

That is not done

Stop looking at things through the prism of today and see how a different culture in a different time did things

716 posted on 06/20/2011 9:22:29 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: All
It's not surprising that the newest generation of reformatters reformat the beliefs of even the first gen of reformatters

John Calvin (Sermon on Matthew)

"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company... And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second."
Now that's one thing I can agree with Calvin about....
717 posted on 06/20/2011 9:22:57 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: madison10
The problem is also linguistics. Not many know any languages besides English.

Even Spanish is a relatively simplified language, compared to the Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew -- English for instance does not have cases such as Gentive, Nominative, Dative, Locative, Instrumental, Vocative or Accusative and does not have gender assigned to inanimate objects

brother has shades of meaning because Aramaic and other Semitic languages do not differentiate between a blood brother/sister and a cousin or other

For example

  1. MAtt 1:2 "Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers," for step-brothers with the same father but different mothers
  2. acts 3:17 "17And now, brethren,"
  3. Luke 10:29 "and who is my brother"
  4. Matt 5:47
  5. Matt 23:8
  6. Rev 22:9
So, yes, brothers had a wider meaning then just blood brother. And no, the term "Irdu" is not used biblically.

The NT was written in Greek, ok -- not all, but let's take your argument for the sake of argument. Remember also that the words of Jesus were mostly Aramaic or Hebrew or maybe even GReek -- we've already shown that in SEmitic languages like Aramaic/hebrew there is no differntiating term between a blood brother and a cousin, let's examine the GReek ouch outos estin o tekton o uios Marias adelphos de Iakobou Iose kai Iouda kai Simonos

If the term is that the adelphoi have the same mother then it would be ho adelphos But that is not used. Without the article adelphos is non-specific and non-exclusive and can mean kinsmen, relatives

718 posted on 06/20/2011 9:27:12 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: madison10
Let me give you another example of the limitations of one who only knows English which does not have gender assigned to inanimate objects and tries to misinterpret something written in Koine Greek: Petros

1. Have you read Matthew? You don't see the part where Jesus gives Simeon a different name -- Petros/Kepha/Piotr/Pierre? And don't you know that Petros/Kepha/Pierre means ROCK? Simeon was his original name and is from Hebrew שִׁמְעוֹן Šimʻôn, meaning "he [God] has heard." Yet in

Matthew 16:18And I tell you that you are Kepha/Petros/Petra/Rock/Peter,[c] and on this kepha/petra/rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven


2. Of course Jesus refers to the man as Peter or as Simon. Just as Jesus Himself is referred to either either Jesus or The Christ, just as Saul and Paul meant the same man.

Now the arguments about Petra vs Petros

Petra means rock and is feminine in origin --> for someone like you, quix who may know only English, it's difficult to understand languages that give gender to inanimate objects

But they do -- all Indo-European languages except English DO have this Genders for inanimate objects

the gospel writer translting to Greek from Aramaic/hebrew can't call Simeon a girl's name "Petra" so he uses the masculine version of that name "Petros".

Jesus never called Peter “Petros,” or “Petra.” He called him Cephas, a name also used by Paul. Koine Greek, throughout the Old Testament Greek, always uses “Petra” for rock; when he translated “Cephas” into Greek, however, Matthew chose “Petros,” the male form of the word.

“Petros” is not a diminuitive of “Petra,” and occurs as such in no Christian writing.

To make petra into a man's proper name, you have to switch it to a masculine declension, so it becomes "Petros". Jesus could not have named Simon "Petra" if he'd wanted to, so the argument that there's some significance in him not naming him "Petra" is evidence of not understanding how languages use gender for inanimate objects

725 posted on 06/20/2011 9:40:23 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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