Liberal U.S. Catholics say their Church is not listening

Reuters ^ | Jun 12, 2011 | Scott Malone

[GonzoII]

(Reuters) - Members of a liberal group of U.S. Roman Catholics on Sunday called on Church leaders to open talks with their members on controversies ranging from the ordination of women to allowing priests to marry.

Members of the American Catholic Council, meeting in Detroit, said they had grown concerned the church's hierarchy was not listening to its members on issues such as the role of women, married clergy and the treatment of homosexuals.

The meeting comes as the Roman Catholic Church in the United States is struggling with a sexual abuse crisis, loss of membership and a dwindling number of priests.

"When in God's name are the conversations going to begin?" asked Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun who addressed the meeting of about 2,000 people -- part of a liberal wing that represents a minority in the 1.2 billion-member Church.

She likened the structure, with bishops and archbishops answering to the pope in Rome, to "a medieval system that has now been abandoned by humanity everywhere, except by us."

Detroit Archbishop Allen Vigneron had warned before the meeting that any members of the clergy who attended the group's mass would risk being defrocked.

"All of the invited keynote speakers have manifested dissent from Catholic teachings or support for dissenters," the archdiocese said in a posting on its website.

[redgolum]

Last gasp?

[Mary Kochan]

We’ve been wandering around in the wilderness waiting for this faithless geneartion of malcontents to die off. Now they are thrashing about in their death throes as they see the futility of all the nonesense they have dedicated their sorry lives to. Soon they will be forgotten.

[Jvette]

I had a theology professor who was a very liberal “Catholic”. She holds a Master’s Degree in theology.

She believed women should be ordained.
She believed all priests should be allowed to marry.
She believed that the Eucharist should be open to all comers, regardless of their beliefs.
She believed that the Eucharist was nothing more than a community meal, no different than a regular meal.
She believed that she could and would be a better priest than any priest she knew.

I was a thorn in her side in that class to say the least.

Near the end, I asked her why she didn’t leave the Catholic church for the Episcopalians.

Her answer....”I love the Catholic Church”

These people are delusional.

[Cicero]

The Catholic Church listens to God, not Joan Chittister.

[GonzoII]

"I had a theology professor who was a very liberal “Catholic”."

My sympathies. ;0)

[Straight Vermonter]

Thanks!

[netmilsmom]

And if you need anything else that I can help with, just give a holler.

[OriginalChristian]

The Church doesn’t take its cue from the lips of Satan. All of this, especially where Joan Chittister is concerned is nothing more than Satan speaking and sowing doubt.

She is to be completely ignored, yet in fashion true to form when the vermin in the secular media want a story on the Catholic Church, they trot out their Old Faithful, liberal nutjob ‘Catholic’ to parade behind a microphone or scribble a few predictable lines.

What a shame she and they are so overcome with Hubris they cannot tolerate the truth.

[sigzero]

They are loons on most but the Bible clearly denotes that a Bishop CAN marry. It is just not the RC position (for historical reasons alone).

[BlackElk]

Neither Marcel Le Febvre nor Leonard Feeney, SJ, were ever pope. Marcel died excommunicated and Feeney spent some years out in the wilderness of excommunication before tucking his tail between his legs and repenting.

John Paul the Great was, ummmm, great. Jesus Christ guaranteed to be with His Church to the very end. If you have a problem with His promises, take it up with Him. Maybe you want to show Him where He was wrong or dishonest in some way. Not likely to be a success for you. Curious that you single JP the Great out. Actual Catholics might be more skeptical of John XXIII and Paul VI for non-dogmatic practical mistakes of Church governance but both of them were successors of Peter as well. The Lefebvrites, however, hate and despise JP the Great as they hate and despise no other because he excommunicated Marcel the revolutionary for his persistent impudent disobedience and dishonesty.

No one is drafting you or holding you as a prisoner of the Vatican. You can adhere to whatever denomination you may prefer. God gave you free will. From your post, it does not appear that you have chosen to enter or remain in Roman Catholicism, whatever you may please yourself to imagine.

You and I have our mere respective opinions and disagreements. Popes have been clothed with actual authority. We have it on the very Highest Authority that whatever each may bind on earth is bound in heaven and whatever each may loose on earth is loosed in heaven. They are the custodians and users of the keys of His Kingdom.

[VermiciousKnid]

Who’s got one of those pics of a teeny tiny violin playing a sad, sad song?

Regards,

[VermiciousKnid]

nitmilsmom is right; Faith and Life is great for Catholic homeschooling. Their catechisms are wonderful.

So are the materials used by Seton Home School. FReep me if you’d like a link to their site. We use them, but be warned: they expect a LOT of work.

Regards,

[IbJensen]

Successors of Pius XIII have not been great. Jesus didn’t say to Peter ‘Whatever cockamamie nonsense you allow in my Church will be allowed in Heaven.’

Allowing pagan, muslim and voo-doo ceremonies to be ‘performed’ in front of a Tabernacle; (Where is that Tabernacle? Oh there it is in an abscure corner.)giving these pagan rites equality with the rites of Christ’s Church is blasphemy. EVERYBODY goes to communion regardless of the state of their souls as only a handful of any congregation has had the benefit of confession.

I am a practical practicing Catholic who hears mass said by an ordained priest every Sunday, holy days of obligation and other days when I can. The mass is said in Latin and is the one said prior to 1962.

Either you don’t read much regarding post Vatican II or you’re part of the problem in which the New Catholic Church is mired in today.

[newnhdad]

nobody is forcing them to stay. Nondenom churches holds services in local theaters, why don’t they go there?

[BlackElk]

The Oratory where I attend Mass is run by the Institute of Christ the King which is fully in communion with the Pope, the Vatican and with our diocesan bishop. ONLY Tridentine Masses are celebrated at the Oratory. Likewise, only Tridentine Confirmations, by our diocesan bishop. Now, IIRC, these are all celebrated according to the Roman Missal of 1962, i.e. not one PRIOR to 1962.

IIRC, the only groups that may be using PRE-1962 missals are the SSPX schismatics (whose poobahs other than revolutionary Marcel were illicitly consecrated as bishops and are general embarrassments: Fellay, de Mallerais who sounds like the worst in show with his infernally impudent and anti-papal mouth and the notorious Williamson and an Hispanic who seems to keep out of controversy better than the others) formerly excommunicated by John Paul II with Marcel dying excommunicated. Perhaps Fellay, de Mallerais, Williamson and the Hispanic will be excommunicated again. That's up to B-XVI and his successors.

Other groups that MAY be using the old pre-1962 missal would be the unrepentant wing of Feeneyites (as opposed to those Feeneyites who followed the repentant Feeney back home to Catholicism), the Society of Saint Pius V, perhaps the group (all 10 of its cultists) that claims "Pope" Michael of rural North Dakota or Montana as their "successor of Peter" and a handful of eccentric independents with apparent brain injuries. I am assuming that you do not attend some sort of traditional Dominican Church that uses the old Ambrosian rite or an Eastern Rite Church or something similarly exempt from Quo Primum.

I note your lack of response to the bait on those groups and the fact that you worship according to a missal no longer approved for Catholic use by the Vatican. You make a point of saying that your priest is ordained but neglect to reveal whether he was ordained by a bishop with diocesan faculties or whether he has faculties to hear confessions from the ordinary of the diocese where he practices his priesthood. At our Oratory, there is a demand for the Sacrament of Penance and only one priest (albeit an outstanding one) who hears confessions before Sunday Mass, and on Saturdays and on request. Nonetheless, at least some do not receive the Eucharist each week.

The Oratory hosts no pagan rites, no muslim rites and no voo-doo rites on the lawn or anywhere on the premises much less in the presence of the Eucharist. Neither do the Novus Ordo parishes of this very orthodox Catholic diocese of Rockford, Illinois. If you have any information to the contrary, please document your claim and forward it to Bishop Thomas Doran, formerly of the Apostolic Signatura, and the fire of heaven will be unleashed against those responsible.

BTW, our one small diocese has 30 seminarians right now. Ten years ago, we had 50 but Bishop Doran has suffered both age and cancer and has slowed a bit. We will surely miss him when his retirement is accepted and we pray for a thoroughly worthy young successor.

Pius XIII has no successors. In fact, there has yet to be a Pius XIII. Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli was elected in 1939 and chose the name Pius XII. You probably knew that but it was hard to resist reminding you. Despite your flip remark, you well know that the power of the keys resides in the reigning pope.

At the church I attend, the tabernacle is right on top of the altar at the center where it belongs. There are NO altar girls, NO Eucharistic ministers or mistresses, no lectors, etc., etc. OTOH, the Novus Ordo is a low-rent rubric but a quite valid Mass. The Vatican and the popes since John XXIII said so. Eventually, thanks to JP II and B-XVI and likely successors, the Tridentine will gradually reassert itself. Class will out and prevail.

[IbJensen]

I know nothing of the Rockford diocese and grind my axe with my local bishop.

Your comment proves that Christ's Church is no longer catholic. While a Novus Ordo mass in one Church may be dignified visiting another parish can be unsettling and an embarrassment to the communicant.

Of course when visiting a foreign country one hasn't a clue as to what's happening.

[BlackElk]

Au contraire. The Roman Catholic Church is quite Catholic. It is the dissenters who are not. Jesus Christ promised to be with the Church all days even unto the end of the Earth. Is He a liar??? I am not tempted to think so. Are you? Clearly Lefebvre, Williamson, de Mallerais and company are so tempted at the very least. Too late for Lefebvre. The rest should repent as publicly as they have sinned and return to clerical obedience before it is too late. It is long past time that they abandon the pretense that it is up to them to discipline the Church rather than to submit humbly to the chastisement that they have earned.

There have always been sinners in the Catholic Church. Mankind is, after all, fallen. The only exceptions I know of are Jesus Christ and His mother. Popes and bishops and priests and laity all sin.

Whatever our differences, may God bless you and yours and give to your diocese a bishop as rigorously Catholic as our Bishop Doran.

[IbJensen]

You are pleased with your proper Church; millions of others who enter a structure resembling an aircraft hangar where a presider sits where a tabernacle should be featured flanked by girl altar boys, are not.

You can tell it’s truly Novus Ordo as the chattering ceases only when the music show starts. After all, nothing of importance will br proceeding.

[BlackElk]

I share your tastes in ecclesiastical architecture and liturgy and in appropriate manners at Mass and the sensible notion that we need altar boys rather than female altar "servers" since service at the altar is expected to lead to priestly vocations which is not and never will be available to girls per JP II and B-XVI.

Even in the City of Rockford, there are a number of "churches" better architecturally suited to be warehouses but that work will apparently be left to the next actually Catholic bishop. Meanwhile numbers of pastors have restored the altar rails to their churches of a more conventional style. There had been a brief enthusiasm among the worst of the clergy to remove kneelers from the pews but that was promptly crushed by the diocesan officials. The senior liberal pastor in Rockford had a gay music director who was fired by the diocese when he and his significant other tried to adopt a child, bringing the entire scandal to diocesan attention. The pastor was sent off for six months to ponder his shortcomings, replaced by much more Catholic clergy for that period and then transferred (in advanced age) to pastor four small parishes in what amounts to diocesan Siberia. We dare think that was a suggestion that he retire. As with the USCCB, the aging nuisances are dying off among local pastors and they are being replaced with actual Catholics.

It will take a while and, just as the Church in America, courtesy of the execrable Jadot, was not destroyed in a day, it won't be rebuilt in a day either. DiNardo in Texas sure beats Flores. Likewise Garcia over McPhoney in LA, Dolan over Weakland at Milwaukee, over his predecessor in NY whose name escapes me, and over Tucson Bishop Kicanas at USCCB, George over Bernardin at Chicago, Burke, Rigali and Carlson as archbishops at St. Louis over May, Olmstead at Phoenix over O'Brien and a host of bishops of other dioceses, such as Denver and Colorado Springs and Detroit and Newark and Springfield, IL, and Fort Worth and we need improvement at DC and Albany and Rochester and numbers of other dioceses.

The answer to the remaining problems lies not in a rude and impudent schism such as SSPX but within the institutional Church. All too many of the schismatics have the manners and leadership style on the ecclesiastical right that mirrors those of the aging and fading radicals of the ecclesiastical left such as Chittester, Weakland, Curran, Bourgeois, Fox, and the surviving members of their shrinking left cult of self-worship.

God bless you and yours.

[IbJensen]

Thanks for your thoughtful response.