Posted on 05/23/2011 3:30:49 PM PDT by TaraP
Just a question in regards to Camping's failed May 21st prediction....
If the dead are raptured first, how long before the *Church* is raptured?
1 Thes. 4:13-18. This description of the Rapture says "The Lord himself will come down from heaven," "the dead in Christ will rise first," and "we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
It says Jesus will come down from heaven but not anything about Jesus returning to heaven. I believe that the saints will meet Jesus in the clouds and follow him back to the Earth where he will set up his Millennial Kingdom...
So, the question is, does the Rapture of the Church come before the Tribulation, in the middle of the Tribulation or after the Tribulation?
Matthew 24. This entire chapter is an answer to the disciples questions about the destruction of the Temple, Jesus' coming and the end of the age.
Jesus talks about false christs, persecution, and desolation of the Holy Place. Verses 4 to 35 appear to be a chronological narative about the events.
"Immediately after the distress of those days,". "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky,"
"He will send his angels" "gather his elect from the four winds,"
It seems to refer that the Rapture of the Church comes after the Tribulation.
Colossians 3:12 where he is clearly speaking to Christians
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
We as Christians will have to go through the Great Tribulation, the ones that don't are the ones that have died in Christ....
Lastly:
Not sure how Camping came up with a 6p.m date for destruction, but strange enough both the Volcanic eruption and tornado in Joplin happened at 6 p.m in there respective time zones....
i enjoy all the opinions on the resurection and its interesting to observe how the enemy has divided and weaken people for their lack of knowledge.
The dead shall rise 1st before those who are alive, it is only in protocal and respect that Hashem does this, but it will be an instantanous difference between the two groups.
You must understand that G-d is Jewish and has chosen jewish principles to teach about escatology. The resurection will happen on year 6000 of the earth when ever that is. That day that no man knows is “RSH” Rosh ha Shanna. The day that no man knows is an idiom. If i said turkey day you would know what day i was talking about. a day is as a thousand years, 7 days, 7 thousand years.
you must not stop at 1 th 4:18. 1st th 5:1 and more, shaul is talking about what i am talking about. This day will not overtake you if you understand the jewish teachings. Camping did not understand this and has help make a mockery of those who are ignorant of G-ds teaching.
does anyone on this blog know why Rosh Ha Shana is called “the day that no man knows”? lets see who can understand the basic teachings of judisim which is the vine and not grafted in.
If the dead are raptured first, how long before the *Church* is raptured?Thoughts
If someone thinks the dead saints have been raised, it should be easily testable. Check the graves. There should be empty graves.
“So you are saying the Dead in Christ and the Church are both raptured at the same time”
The dead in Christ rise first. But that doesn’t mean the remaining church get raptured later after the tribulation. The Saints are part of the first coming. Two seperate comings of Christ are discribed where the gatherings are clearly different in nature.
First the meeting of the Saints in the clouds. Then the Gospels clearly say that Jesus Christ returns to the earth later and conquers it, when the people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats. If this event is the same as the Rapture of the saints “sheep” wouldn’t there only be goats left on the earth? How could Jesus find sheep on Earth to separate from them when they’ve already been taken to the air?
It’s clear that two different events involving different peoples are described.
The Resurrection
There are 2:
I. The first one - of the righteous
When: Occurs after the Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week), after the King of Kings and Lord of Lords comes with His armies from heaven, after the great supper of God, after the beast & the kings of the earth with him who have assembled to make war against Him are thrown into the lake of fire [hell], along with the false prophet, after the armies with him are killed, and after Satan, the serpent of old, is bound. [Revelation 19:11-21; 20:2]
Blessed & holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the 2nd death has no power, but they will be priests of God & of Christ & will reign with Him for a 1000 years. [Revelation 20:5]
Who has a part:
1) Old Testament saints [those with the faith of Abraham] - believers in the promised seed [Genesis 12:3]
2) New Testament saints [those with the faith of Abraham] - believers in the promised seed [Galatians 3:8]
The promised seed = Jesus
3) The souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimoney of Jesus & because of the word of God, & those who have not worshiped the beast or his image, & have not received the mark upon their forehead & upon their hand; they come to life & reign with Christ for 1000 years [Revelation 20:4]
These are Tribulation saints—those who trust in the Lord Jesus during the 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week, who have been martyred for their faith in Him.
II. The second one - of the dead
When: The rest of the dead that come to life after the 1000 years are completed.
They will stand before a great white throne & Him who sits upon it and be judged from the things which were written in books, according to their deeds. [Revelation 20:11-15]
Their final destination = Revelation 20:14-15
The sheep and goat judgment spoken of by our Lord in Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of all the nations, as to how they treated the King’s followers...to the extent that they did not do it (feed, give drink, invite in, clothe)to the least of these, they did not do it to Him, v. 45
This will also take place when the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the angels with Him, and sits on His glorious throne in Jerusalem, literally, to establish justice and righteousness. The surviving peoples of the nations [from the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week] will be divided according to the things listed and the sheep nations will go into eternal life & the goat nations will go away into eternal punishment.
The Scriptures, both OT & NT, imply that the rapture of the church will occur BEFORE the great tribulation, or tribulation, that is described in Matthew 24:21; in other words, before the wrath of God is poured out.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “For God has not destined us (believers, i.e., the church) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” This outpouring of God’s wrath is called the Day of the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.
If God’s wrath is coming at mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week (which is when I believe the Scriptures say it is coming, not at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week), then the church must be raptured by mid-point; the church cannot be here when God’s wrath begins. The abomination of desolation/man of lawlessness/little horn/antichrist seats himself in the temple in Jerusalem and demands worship at the mid-point of the Week. The 2 witnesses also go up at the mid-point (Revelation 11).
[Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4]
All this to say, the Scriptures strongly imply the rapture will occur before the mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week and explicitly say it will occur before the Day of the Lord begins, or mid-point. And, our Lord said in Matthew 24:36 that all the events described in these verses: of that day & hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone—which is why Harold Camping is a false teacher.
The Scriptures, both OT & NT, imply that the rapture of the church will occur BEFORE the great tribulation, or tribulation, that is described in Matthew 24:21; in other words, before the wrath of God is poured out. It could occur any time BEFORE the mid-point.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “For God has not destined us (believers, i.e., the church) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” This outpouring of God’s wrath begins with the Day of the Lord, according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11.
If God’s wrath is coming at mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week, then the church must be raptured by mid-point; the church cannot be here when God’s wrath begins.
The abomination of desolation/man of lawlessness/little horn/antichrist (synonymous) seats himself in the temple in Jerusalem and demands worship at the mid-point of the Week. The 2 witnesses also go up at the mid-point [Revelation 11].[Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4]
All this to say, the Scriptures strongly imply the rapture will occur before the mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week and explicitly say it will occur before the Day of the Lord begins, or mid-point.
And, our Lord said in Matthew 24:36 that all the events described in these verses [Matthew 24]: “of that day & hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”—which is why Harold Camping is a false teacher.
So did they die again and get reburied?
I also do not know how Camping came up with his 6pm timestamp, apart from knowing that he was wrong.
As for the Joplin tornado, it did not happen at 6pm. Touch down was at 5.41pm. Source: The tornado touched down at 5:41 p.m. Sunday -- 24 minutes after a warning was issued -- said Thomas Schwein, central regional director for the National Weather Service. It grew to as wide as three-quarters of a mile at one point along its estimated four-mile track, according to Missouri's State Emergency Management Agency.
As for the volcanic eruption in Iceland, Grimsvotn erupted at 5.30pm local time on Saturday. Source: Satellite Photos Show Grimvotn Volcano Eruption From Space - 2 hours ago The Grimvotn volcano began erupting Saturday at 5:30 pm local time on May 21. ... [Photos of Grimsvotn Volcano Lightning Show]
Thus, none of the two events happened at 6 pm local time, unless rounding up is allowed (and if that is the case, then it is a guesstimate rather than a prophecy). Bottom line is that Camping is a false prophet no matter how the bread is sliced, and that is based on Biblical measures for a false prophet (if one prophesies something and it does not happen). His day was off, and his timing was also off.
Unless ofcourse there is rounding off in heaven.
Camping = FAIL.
Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of the norm apart from miracles (see Lazarus).
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