Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
Well, GN, perusing what you wrote, I am going to stand on what I said before. I see nothing new or persuasive in your response.
But I will add a postscript. You said near the end:
“Let the readers decide who is “clouding” the Scriptures when Jesus Christ gives a detailed description of what conditions will be like during His thousand year reign, and then they get to read how all those details are really meaningless, that what Jesus really meant was that His kingdom is in the “hearts” of people.”
I note that you used the word “reign” and the word “kingdom.” Do you know what the first meaning of the word “kingdom” was in King Jamesian English? Check any good dictionary, not some of the junk to be found today. In this case the English of that time matches the Greek perfectly. I also note that you mock Jesus’ ruling in the hearts of His people. Mocking is dangerous business.
This is what I am getting at. Read Scripture, Book of Concord, Your churches constitution and get back to me if you still agree or want to adjust your statement. The Lutheran Church is not a Congregational Church. The LCMS does not follow its rules.
Belteshazzar Is this Lutheran Doctrine?
The LCMS pride I am talking about is the dirty kind I had. I know the truth and I am the true Israel.
By all means, please include them!
The post was long as it was and there was tons else I left out.
I do appreciate that Alcorn is strictly Biblical.
I think the book would have been better incorporating stuff from the better Heavenly visits narratives. However, it is a thick book as it is.
Hi Quix, My OP thesis is correct. Camping was always talking about replacement theology judgment day. I guess he now says doomsday is Oct 21, 2011. He has no clue about Israel or how Israel is the key to holistic understanding of Bible Prophecy.
It appears to me that Scripture indicates that after the Millenium reign of Christ this multiverse is traded in for a new one.
However . . . we don’t know precisely how long after. We really don’t know much of anything about that future point.
Thankfully, God has decreed that we’ll always be with Him—ruling and reigning with Christ. That’s sufficient knowledge for us for now . . . from His perspective.
I’m at peace with that.
I agree, God can figure it out!
Colton reminds me of the image I’ve long had of young kids being mighty warriors for God in the End Times. He’s one sharp kid . . . totally in love with Jesus and totally convinced of Biblical truth—EXPERIENTIALLY—HE’S SEEN THE REAL THING.
PRAISE GOD FOR YOUR FAITHFULNESS TO HIS TRUTHS.
Somewhat fits his personality.
I’d just forgotten what all he said about that ilk of thing.
I quit listening to him when I moved out of San Diego in 1978.
On the one hand, Lutherans are neither Episcopal, Presbyterial, nor Congregational in their view of the government of the church. On the other hand, Lutherans have been all of these at various times and in various places. When it comes to church government, Christ is the head of the church. Thus, when it comes to a congregation, which has responsibilities for which it is answerable to God in both kingdoms, that of His left hand, civic, and that of His right, ecclesiastical, the power is automatically divided, and somewhat dependent on the governmental structure of the nation in which it finds itself.
I have worked in the former Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, and India. Lutherans govern themselves differently in each of those places, at least as far as their responsibilities go in the kingdom of the left hand. In some places Lutherans have bishops and are more episcopal, in other places they are more consistorial (which, I suppose, you could say is loosely - loosely - presbyterial), and in other places, like the US, more congregational. None of the three are better or worse than the others, each has its strengths and each its weaknesses. The key is that all things be done in an orderly way (vz 1 Corinthians 14) according to the revealed will of God.
Martin Chemnitz, the Second Martin, somewhat wrote the book on this. The bottom line is simple, whichever form is adopted given the real world circumstances of those Christians who gather together in Jesus’ name in that place, each party has no right before God to lord it over the others. (see Mark 11:42-45) Authority in the Lutheran church is entirely bound up in loving service to each other under Christ, the sole Head of the church.
In America, generally, the congregation, through its chosen officers, controls all the physical assets for which they are responsible under the just laws of the nation, state, country, city, etc. The pastor’s authority is only in the realm of the kingdom of grace, the right hand of God, i.e., preaching/teaching, baptism, the keys, the Lord’s Supper. Certainly the pastor can and must apply the Word, both Law and Gospel, to the congregation when there is sin afoot (which is like always). This can result in calling the congregation out in cases where funds or property are being misused. This is part of our stewardship of all things, and hence doctrine. And just as certainly the congregation can and must call the pastor out if he persists in teaching false doctrine, or if he is either unable or unwilling to carry out his proper, scriptural duties. But in both cases, the calling out had better be for clear scriptural reasons, or that particular party is guilty of sin.
The problem in our day (and always really) is the pastor who is either too timid or too overbearing in his application of God’s word to the people and also the congregation which does not respect and support the pastor’s divine call to be their pastor.
This is, of course, a vastly simplified explanation. But hopefully it is helpful to you.
Thank you so much for sharing all that, dear brother in Christ!
You’re most welcome.
I think Alcorn is right . . . a proper Biblical view of Heaven is important . . . The Bible exhorts us to seek Heavenly things, priorities.
If we have a fuzzy, mushy, ethereal, unreal notion of Heaven, focusing on Heavenly priorities can be difficult to impossible, most of the time, for most of us.
I think that’s one reason books like Colton Burpo’s HEAVEN IS FOR REAL are such a blessing. They bring Scriptures and HEAVENLY REALITIES, HEAVENLY PRIORITIES
ALIVE
in tangible, personally identifiable, personally ‘ownable’ ways.
Nice try, but unfortunately it fizzled into ashes.
The fact that Jesus Christ reigns in the hearts of those who know Him as Savior during this present Age of Grace has nothing to do with and is completely apart from and separate from, His literal, one thousand year reign on earth.
So, if there was any mocking, it was directed at the person who lamely attempted to deny the Scripture that states that Jesus Christ will literally rule, for a literal one thousand years, on David's throne, from Jerusalem, and turn it into something that has nothing to do with Christ's future kingdom. The mocking, if there was any, was directed at the person who attempted to confuse the issue and substitute one passage of Scripture for another.
And as for your semantic games, if King Henry has a "kingdom", is he not "reigning"?
Nice try, though.
I myself have also thought church council is better handling money issues than the Pastor.
Does primary Lutheran doctrine found in the Book of Concord make room for this compromise? I read the local Pastor is a sort of mini pope or bishop for his congregation.
BTW I do assume you are a Lutheran Pastor?
Amen and the more you know God’s word in your heart, not head, the more this rings true.
AMEN AMEN Faith is found IN Our Lord Jesus Christ. Not OF The Lord Jesus Christ! Even demons have the OF faith. We must abide IN the vine. We must experience the relationship.
GN insisted in post 768:
“This simply is not going to work for you. This isn’t about Revelation 20.”
Now GN writes:
“this present Age of Grace has nothing to do with and is completely apart from and separate from, His literal, one thousand year reign on earth.”
And also:
“to deny the Scripture that states that Jesus Christ will literally rule, for a literal one thousand years, on David’s throne, from Jerusalem,”
This is NOT about Revelation 20? Yet here you are right back there, right back to the exact, chronological 1000 year - EXACTLY! - reign of Christ on a literal throne of David in a literal Jerusalem. Revelation 20 is, as I said before, the lens through which you insist everyone interpret the Scriptures or be called a heretic. It is the keystone of your hermeneutics. As Jesus once said to Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” (John 3:10-12)
You say that the 1000 years must be taken literally as if God never speaks otherwise in His word. This is complete nonsense.
If we contend with God we cannot answer 1 question in a 1000. But after the 1001st question we’ll be able to answer? (Job 9:3)
The cattle on a 1000 hills belong to God. But those on hill 1001 or 1253 belong to whom? (Psalm 50:10)
One day in the courts of the Lord is better than a 1000. But it is not better than 1001 days? (Psalm 84:10)
One day is with the Lord as 1000 years, exactly? Oops, we are starting to hit pretty close to home here, aren’t we? (Psalm 90:4)
God’s faithfulness will extend to a 1000 generations. But my oh my that 1001st generation is in trouble, isn’t it? (Psalm 105:8)
You could say, “Wait, all those are from obviously poetic, figurative contexts.”
OK, sure. And Revelation 20 isn’t? Let’s see, dragon, chain, key ... What am I missing here? No, you have everything turned around, insisting that the less clear be used to interpret, nay, contradict, the most clear. This method of yours isn’t sola Scriptura, Scripture interprets Scripture. And by it you diminish the glory and honor of great David’s far greater Son. No, I don’t think you intend to do so, but that is the result.
Your expert, Arnold Fruechtenbaum in the disquisition you linked for me to read said that the 1000 year period found in Revelation 20 is found nowhere else in the Bible, but because it is repeated 6 times, God is making a point that it is literal. That is, first of all not logical. And, second of all I would be very leery of anything that is associated with the number 6 in Revelation, given what the symbolism of that number tends to indicate.
Why don’t you pay more attention to Psalm 110:1-2 which is cited SEVENTEEN times in the NT, and always in reference to Christ and His reigning at the right hand of God?
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