Cessationism Refuted [i.e. Gifts & Operations of HS Stopped at End of Rev]

http://www.charlescarrinministries.com/ [Partially] ^ | 28 FEB 2010 | Charles Carrin & Steven Lambert

[Quix]

On February 28, 2010, in Charismatic Gifts, False teaching, Real Truth, by admin

My good friend, Charles Carrin, as a Baptist pastor for more than twenty-five years, was much like Apollos before Priscilla and Aquila “took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately” (Ac. 18:24-26). Like Apollos, he was “an eloquent man…and he was mighty in the Scriptures,” he “had been instructed in the way of the Lord” in Baptist schools, was “fervent in spirit,” and “was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus,” meaning the Gospel of Christ’s sacrifice. However, Charles, like Apollos and myriad other sincere and fervent traditional denominational ministers today, was “acquainted only with the baptism of John,” the original Baptist.

This simply was the way it was for this very eloquent and learned Bible scholar and teacher for nearly three decades of service as a Baptist pastor, until one day when, in the midst of severe trial and spiritual dryness and emptiness, he had a personal encounter with the Holy Spirit, and despite all his refutations, protestations, and contrarian beliefs, was thoroughly IMMERSED or BAPTIZED in both the water and the fire of the Holy Spirit! Himself and his theology were forever changed! From that day forward, cessation theories for Charles Carrin were thoroughly expunged from his theology, but more importantly, from his personal relationship with the God-Head. From that day forward, he had no more questions regarding the reality of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, no not one!

After nearly eighty years of living and over sixty in the Kingdom, Charles has come to some specific conclusions concerning what the Spirit says in the Word of God about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as well as the Dunamis-Power of God unto supernatural manifestations of the Spirit throughout the Church Age. This learned and articulate servant of God in this article does a masterful job of refuting the wholly indefensible cessation theories espoused by so many denominations and so-called “fundamentalists” today, who, unfortunately, continue to “invalidate the Word of God by their traditions.”

KINGDOM FAITH OR KINGDOM FICTION — WHICH IS IT?
By Charles Carrin

The New Testament gospel is powerful, eternal, perpetually true. Two thousand years after its presentation to the world it is still relevant, unabridged, unchallengeable. When Charles Spurgeon was asked how he defended the gospel, he replied, “I don’t defend the gospel any more than I would defend a lion. I just open the cage and let it out.”

Jesus called His message the “gospel of the Kingdom.” That message has never been, nor will ever be changed. Nor will it become a gospel of the church. The Kingdom knows no failure. The Kingdom is triumphant, victorious, all-conquering. The Kingdom is permanent, unchanging. The Kingdom needs no such excuse. To absolve herself of blame.

The church is subject to great failure. The church is schismatic, self-indulging, unreliable. The church is temporal, justifies herself and vindicates her failures. The church has invented an escape-hatch called Cessationist Theology. This pleasant sounding expression declares that God has withdrawn the Holy Spirit’s miraculous power from the church. The church has a book — the Bible — and little more than that. We have no power because God has removed it. The fault is not our’s.

Much of modern, evangelical Christianity is a parallel of the ministry of Apollos. It is sincere, eloquent, accurately teaching Bible truth as far as it allows itself to believe. But its doctrine is measured by its own opinion–it is afraid to measure its doctrine by Scripture.

Dispensationalism — the claim that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit passed away — dominates traditional Christianity. Jesus said there would be no such change. Hear His words: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:20. Jesus fully expected the church “at the end of the age” to believe and teach “all things” that He had commanded the original disciples.

The Apostle Jude did not believe the cessationist claim. Instead, he presented one of the New Testament’s strongest defenses for the gospel’s unalterability. He said, “I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The “once for all” in our English Bibles comes from a valuable little Greek word, “hapax.” In spite of its small size hapax carries significant authority. It means: “one, a single time, conclusively, absolutely all, every one.”

This hapax-expression appears at least eight times in the Greek New Testament. It is translated “once for all” five times in the New King James Version. Three additional times the New International Version translates it as “once.” In every instance hapax establishes the unchangeability of its subject. Six of the references below apply directly to Jesus, one applies to the believer, and the final one to Kingdom faith. In four instances in the Greek text the preposition “epi” (upon) is added to reinforce the “once for all” meaning.

The Hapax Scriptures

1. Romans 6:10. “For the death that Jesus died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.”

2. Hebrews 7:27. “Who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this Jesus did once for all when He offered up Himself.”

3. Hebrews 9:12. “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood Jesus entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

4. Hebrews 9:26-27. “He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

5. Hebrews 10:2-3. For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.

6. Hebrews 10:10. “By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

7. 1 Peter 3:18. “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

8. Jude 3. “Beloved … I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.”

To which of these hapax–”once for all” — passages are you willing to apply Cessation Theology? Would your theology be complete if any of the “once for all” references were removed from the work of Jesus? Would you like any of these subjects to be vulnerable to change? Are you genuinely glad that they are “hapax” — “once for all” — secure? If so, it is impossible for you to endorse Cessationist Theology. You cannot accept the works of Jesus as hapax and then deny the Holy Spirit the same respect in His maintaining hapax in the permanency of Scripture. You cannot do it and uphold integrity with the Word!

Modern Christianity has convinced itself that Jesus provided two distinct gospels and two distinct faiths — one for the first century church and one for those who followed after. The first was miraculously empowered; the second was not. The first had the baptismal gift of the Holy Spirit; the second was merely given a book telling what the Holy Spirit had achieved in the past. Hear the truth: Jesus provided everyone — past, present, future — with a faith which was hapax-true, hapax-strong, hapax-forever.

The fact is this: Whether you and I accept it or not, the original “faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” is still intact. It is unaltered. In a conclusive, unchangeable way the faith of the Apostolic Era was delivered for “all time” intact to every subsequent generation. There will never be another.

Someone argues, “But I have never seen the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit in my church!” True. But the fault lies with the church, not with God. The contemporary church is a victim of its own unbelief. It has created its blighted condition.

Observe that the Apostle Jude said he:

1. Found it “necessary”

2. To “exhort you”
3. To “contend earnestly”

This agrees perfectly with Jesus’ instruction in Matthew 28:18-20 that believers to “the end of the age” be taught to “observe all things that I have commanded you” (the original disciples). Then, as if to emphasize the unchangeability of the gospel’s time-span, He said, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Observe the expression “all things”. What did He mean by that expression? Scripture does not leave us to wonder. Matthew 10:7-9 makes it very plain: “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” When He said, “teach them all things…to the end of the age,” this is what He meant.

The obvious message is that the gospel — and the faith arising from it — have been permanently given one time and will never be given again. That initial provision is sufficient “once for all” time and “once for all” people. In an emphatic way, this says that New Testament faith, doctrinally and experientially, as it was originally presented by the Holy Spirit, is unchangeable. It cannot be added to or taken from. Any cessationist claim otherwise is a hoax. Such an accusation insults the Cross and the work of the Holy Spirit (cf., 2 Peter 1:21).

Even so, the idea is rampant in modern Christianity that parts of the Covenant-Book which Jesus ratified by the sprinkling of His blood (Hebrews 9:11-15), have lost validity. This supposedly occurred at the death of the Apostle John in 70 a.d., or when the New Testament books were canonized into one volume in a.d. 367.

The truth is, modern Christians have invented that monstrous idea. We have done so because we do not want accountability for our own failures. If we can justify the absence of God’s miraculous presence by claiming He withdrew it from us, we don’t have to accept blame for our having withdrawn ourselves from Him.

The Bible’s Example

The Book of Acts gives us a working model of a conscientious, godly pastor who preached a powerless gospel. Like many today, Apollos was pastor of a small, struggling congregation. He was faithful, loved God, served the congregation, but was totally bereft of power. While he was away from his home at Ephesus, Paul came and found his church of 12 male disciples with wives and children. In spite of Apollos having excellent credentials for ministry, Paul immediately recognized powerlessness in the man’s flock. Both Paul and Apollos were servants of God, both equally loved the church, and each possessed vast knowledge of Scripture. Even so, a major discrepancy existed between their ministries. Paul had power; Apollos did not. Paul preached the gospel of the Kingdom; Apollos obviously knew nothing about it.

In light of the Apostle Jude’s exhortation to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints,” we see how Apollos — though innocent of any evil intent — had accepted a partial gospel and experienced partial results. The ministries of Paul and Apollos are a parallel of pastors and churches today. I emphasize the fact that Apollos was ignorant because he had never been taught — not because he had knowingly rejected the truth. In our day pastors fall into two groups: Those who have never been taught and are innocently ignorant of spiritual gifts and those who willfully reject spiritual gifts. Carefully observe these seven facts which Scripture records about Apollos:

1. He was a Jew.
2. An eloquent man.
3. Mighty in Scripture.
4. Instructed in the way of the Lord.
5. Fervent in spirit.
6. Taught accurately the things of the Lord.
7. But: He knew only the “baptism of John” — that is, he knew nothing about the Baptism in the Spirit. He had a partial gospel and a partial faith.

When Paul recognized spiritual-powerlessness in the Ephesians, he asked the all-revealing question, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They responded, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” This tragic ignorance existed because Apollos knew only the “baptism of John.” He knew nothing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and had left his congregation in that same condition. Paul immediately instructed the Ephesians about the Holy Spirit’s empowering and when he “laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” That event proved to be a cataclysmic change not only for Ephesus but for the rest of the Roman world.

Under Apollos’ ministry, the church at Ephesus accomplished absolutely nothing to awaken the city. It demonstrated no Kingdom power, remained spiritually paralyzed, and except for the local Synagogue, its presence was virtually unknown. In that state, the congregation had no effective witness, made no impact on the people, was no threat to “powers, principalities, rulers of the darkness of this world,” etc. Instead, the dark cloud of paganism gripped the land with unchallenged control. The Temple of Diana — or Artemas — already famous as the greatest of all Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, dominated the area. It was in the shadow of this formidable enemy that this minuscule church, ineffective and unknown, lay dormant.

That changed when Paul arrived. When he came on the scene, Ephesus experienced a “Kingdom of God” earthquake. Paul was not the power but he was the instrument for the truth that produced the shaking. He merely provided the window through whom the power roared; Apollos and twelve other windows were already present in Ephesus but they had never been opened.

Jesus Said “The Scripture Cannot Be Broken”

“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law*, ‘I said, “You are gods’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.” (John 10:34-40) [*Psalm 82:6]

Jesus reminded the Jews that it was David — not Himself — who first wrote about God miraculously empowering the saints. Those fortunate ones to whom “the word of God comes” are so changed and endowed that in the eyes of the demonic-world — in a comparative sense — they become gods (with a little “g”). Simply stated, Jesus intended the saints to exercise power over the demonic realm (cf., Luke 10:19).

It was Jesus who said “The Scripture CANNOT be broken.” That means that the New Testament is still intact. No part is out-dated and it cannot be victimized by cessationist teaching. In believing it we open ourselves to receive a miraculous imparting of its “word”. Those to whom the word of God comes are changed from ordinary humanity into extraordinary humanity. The “word of the Lord came” to Abraham, Samuel, Nathan, Gad, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Haggai, Zechariah, John the Baptist, the first disciples, others. All of these experienced transformation when the “word of God” came to them. This is the only sensible explanation for the explosive growth of Christianity in the Roman world.

What Happens Today When The True “Word of God” Comes With Power?

1. Psalm 107:19-20. “Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.”

2. Matthew 8:16-17. “When evening had come, they brought unto him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with His word, and healed all who were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, He Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.”

3. Luke 4:31-36. “Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. And in the synagogue there was a man, who had a spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know you who you are — the Holy One of God. But Jesus rebuked him, saying, Be quiet and come out of him. And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him, and did not hurt him. Then they were all amazed, and spoke among themselves, saying, What a word is this! For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out.”

4. Acts 2:40-41. “And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that about three thousand souls were added unto them.”

5. Titus 1:1-3. “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began; But has in due times manifested his word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior.”

6. I John 2:4-6. “He who says, I know him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him: By this know we that we are in him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (The “Word” is already perfected, so what is being perfected? The one who receives the word.)

7. Luke 1:38. Mary was impregnated when she told the angel, “Be it unto me according to your word.”

8. Matthew 4:4. Jesus said: “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

9. Matthew 24:35. Jesus said: “Heaven and earth shall pass a way but My words will by no means pass away.”

10. God the Father said: “My Covenant I will not break nor alter the Word that is gone out of my lips.” Psalm 89:34.

11. John 17:8. Jesus said to the Father: “For I have given to them (the disciples) the words which You have given Me, and they have received them….”

12. I Peter 1:25. Peter said: “But the word of the Lord endures forever. Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.”

13. II Peter 1:21. Peter said again: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

14. II Timothy 3:16. Paul said: “Be diligent…rightly diving the word of truth.” II Timothy 2:1. Paul said again: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.”

15. Galatians 1:8. Paul said once more: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

16. Psalm 119:89. David said: “Forever, O Lord, Your Word is settled in Heaven.”

If you are one of those believers whose Cessationist Theology denies the integrity of Scripture or the Holy Spirit’s miraculous gifts, stop it! You are on the losing team! You are on God’s opposing team!

Kingdom faith is fact, not fiction! Hapax — “once for all.”###

Charles Carrin
Apr 23, 2009

---

CHARLES CARRIN’S ministry spans the final half of the twentieth century. He was ordained in 1949 and in his youth traveled with men who preached in the 1800′s. For the first twenty-seven years of his ministry, Charles was a hyper-Calvinist Baptist pastor and Presbyterian seminarian who denied the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit. Mid-way in his ministry that abruptly changed. Personal crisis forced him to acknowledge Scriptures he had previously ignored. It was a time of intense pain and testing. The truths he saw were frightening; they had power to destroy his denominational ministry and at that point he had no hope that another, more wonderful ministry awaited him. As a result of his submitting to God in that crisis, Charles emerged with an amazing anointing of the Holy Spirit. Today, his ministry centers upon the visible demonstration of the Spirit and imparting of His gifts. This new ministry has taken him to London’s Westminster Chapel, the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, and other significant places. He, R.T. Kendall, the former, 25 year pastor at Westminster Chapel, and Jack Taylor, former Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention, travel together holding “Word, Spirit, Power, Conferences.” As an evangelist/writer, Charles’ articles have appeared in major Christian magazines in the United States and abroad. He travels extensively, teaching believers how to operate in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Charles Carrin Ministries

[Boogieman]

“However, for those who have experienced speaking in tongues; it is real.”

It might seem real to them, but all the “speaking in tongues” that I’ve seen doesn’t resemble what is described in the Bible at all.

Now, if the real thing still happened, and just some of the people were faking or being hysterical, then you’d expect the authentic “tongue-speakers” to call the others out on their error and correct them. I’ve never heard of that either, which leads me to believe there probably aren’t any authentic ones.

[roamer_1]

And the irony is, the same Scofiled who preached cessationaism [...]

It is an amazement to me how every time a thread goes up about any sort of charismatic subject, the accusation is made that we adhere to Scofield. One of these days I will have to look the guy up to see why.

[Chaguito]

Belteshazzar, don’t let your humble spirit lower you into a false humility, which is simply another form of spiritual pride. The apostle Peter tells you that you have been made a partaker (have fellowship with) the divine nature. This is because of the life in you: the Spirit of God, the very life of Jesus Christ in you.

God calls us to come before his throne boldly. That is not to say ‘arrogantly’(of which you are rightly so tired), rather it is a form of thanksgiving for the special miracle of that life in you.

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - against these things there is no law. The Spirit of Christ in you - against this there is no polemic.

[Joya]

So, what do you mean when you say you and your church are consistent in refuting Scofield’s insanity? And by Quix denying part and clutching to another part?

p.s. What is meant by post - millenial?

[Quix]

Evidently I don’t measure up sufficiently to your standard of Christian to merit significant dialogue with you.

Sad as that is . . . I’ll continue to try and muddle through somehow, by His Grace.

[Quix]

Maybe I’ll feel like bothering with those points tomorrow. I don’t at present.

God seems to have some degree of criteria in such matters . . . that He also violates on occasion . . . that folks must needs seek His Face, His Spirit, His empowerment . . . in addition to following Him as obediently as they can manage . . . if they are going to have much of His Spirit flow through them in miraculous ways.

Most folks and even most congregations—even Pentecostal types . . . . just aren’t willing to pay the price in prayer, fasting and obedience.

[Quix]

Thx.

Good points.

[Quix]

I have.

[Quix]

He’s one of their favorite STRAW DOGS.

I never bothered with him nor about him.

[Sontagged]

I need more.

Prayer Fasting Obedience.

BTW, I always forget, that the signs FOLLOW true believers they are not to be SOUGHT.

Bless you Quix

[Quix]

Yes and no.

Why did Paul say to

SEEK the best gifts?

[boatbums]

Not ALL people speak in tongues; (1 Cor. 12:7-11) and that was one of the things about the Charismatic movement back in the 1970’s that put a lot of people under. However, for those who have experienced speaking in tongues; it is real. Much how to use it, I do not know.

Correct, not all have the gift of tongues, just like not all have the gift of teaching, etc. My beef with the Charismatic movement was and is that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" does NOT mean speaking in tongues. It just cannot mean that because we are all baptized in the HS when we are saved and, since Scripture clearly says not all will have this gift, it doesn't mean what they tried to make it mean. I even had a preacher in my area that adamantly said that if one DID NOT speak in tongues, they were NOT saved! They actually gave "lessons" in how to do it. Sorry, but that is not how the Holy Spirit operates. Besides, most of those today who claim they have that gift, do not have the "same" gift as the early Christians did.

Everyone that I knew did not speak in any known language but only sounded like made up ramblings - what kind of sign would that be? One teacher we had in my previous church claimed that he spoke in tongues when he "prayed in the Spirit" and even implied that that is how everyone did so. Yet Scripture says when the Holy Spirit prays for us it is "in words that cannot be uttered". He also forgot that not everyone received that gift according to Paul in I Corinthians. I guess he thought those who didn't missed out on having the Holy Spirit intercede for them. Nor did the explanation that they were speaking in a "heavenly" language that we will all speak when we get to Heaven. No Scripture support for that either.

I hate to say it, but some even today try to use such things to make everyone think they are holier than others or more blessed by God. They often preach a different Gospel, too, and many uninformed believers fall for their scheme and are lead away from the truth of Jesus Christ. That was definitely NOT how that was to happen in the church.

One other thing that they do not seem to remember is that Scripture says the "lesser" gifts should not be sought after and also that certain "sign" gifts would stop:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

There is discussion over what "that which is perfect" or "when completeness comes" means. I tend to go with the completed Scriptures since their authority as the Word of God supersede any "sign" gifts that were needed prior to this happening. That's my two-cents. We can disagree but we don't have to be disagreeable.

[boatbums]

Why did Paul say to SEEK the best gifts?

He didn't. I Corinthians 12 says:

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[*]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire[**] the greater gifts.

* - Or other languages

** - Or But you are eagerly desiring

[Boogieman]

“I have.”

Have what though? Seen authentic, Biblical speaking in tongues, done it yourself, or condemned those who are doing it illegitimately?

[RJR_fan]

I’ve never owned nor followed anything from Schofield.

Actually, it's Scofield. No H.

Yet, you agree with this con-artist and swindler's bizarre and newfangled notions that God has a chosen people outside of Christ. That God has decided to take a dive, and let the other team play a few uncontested innings. That Israel, which you identify with a secular and anti-christian socialist political entity, rather than Jesus, is the center, explanation, and goal of history. That we have a detailed roadmap of the future. Like old Cyrus Scofield 150 years ago, you live within a constantly moving ten-year window of immanent prophetic doings.

[RJR_fan]

Good morning, Joya.

I like your tagline -- Acts 16:35 is one of the first verses I began claiming and praying for my family, nearly 40 years ago. My "salvation verse" -- Choose this day whom you will serve -- also mentioned one's household: as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. In the 2/3 of a lifetime since then, God has given me an incredible wife, and four precious children to raise for His glory. He has also opened my eyes to the centrality of the family in His Kingdom purposes. The family is, in His ordering, a place of refuge, delight, and refreshment. The godly family is also a "force multiplier," that offsets a man's shortcomings and allows him to exert influence across future decades. Augustine described his son Adeotus as "the only man to whom I would honestly say, 'I wish for you to excel me in every way'." My adult daughter and I went through part of grad school simultaneously, and proof-read each other's scholarly papers. I have my PhD now, she probably will within the next few years, and she already surpasses me in her mastery of the academic world. Her husband is also a godly young man, heir to a passionate Reformed Christian faith. They met at the "Campus Calvinist Club" (Reformed University Fellowship) and again at the SCA.

I was born again in 1970, at the peak of the "Jesus movement," and saw a stunning move of God touch thousands of lives, then evaporate. We thought great things were about to happen -- but they didn't. The only lingering impact of that movement on the church is, as far as I can see, worship services are now modeled on rock concerts: lead singer, backup vocals, drums and electric instruments. How did such a promising irruption of God's power and grace into our lives come to so little? That is the question I've invested the last 40 years in pondering, and researching. The bottom line, as I see it, is the distinction between "revival" and "reformation." As a man I have little respect for otherwise pointed out, churches that experience true revival, true touches from God, are usually worse off two years afterward than they were before. Like folks who win big in the lottery, and soon go bankrupt. OTOH, reformations typically take a century or so to get up to speed, and completely re-order the way people live and think. Revivals tend to be emotional bacchanalias, exciting thrill-rides that focus on "the heart" -- usually defined as a sub-rational zone of intense mystical experience. Reformations, while passionate, are also scholarly movements that consecrate whole men, mind and heart and life, to the advancement of the Kingdom.

I experienced a second conversion in 1980, when a young man I'd led to the Lord in 1970 returned the favor by giving me a stack of books by the ArmEnian Calvinist, the guy who coined the term secular humanism to define the American state church. As I read and thought and prayed, my eyes were opened to the joyous extent of God's good purposes. Christianity is a worldview, not just another navel view, not just another "variety of religious experience." Christianity is truly true, and applies to all of life. Not just "religiously" true, and applicable only to the unreal / emotional / mystical zone of "the heart." Jesus is LORD -- over the universe around us, as well as over our "hearts." His Word is the command of the King, the operating manual for all of life, including public life.

Part of this total package was post-millennialism. Most evangelicals summon men to battle by first conceding the war. But not all. Let me offer my well-worn football metaphor:

• Postmillennial Christians play to win, filled with confidence in the Coach and the Playbook.
• Amillennial Christians really don't expect to move the ball too far past the 50-yard line, but they love the coach, and will play their hearts out for Him, hoping for a tie at best.
• Premillennial Christians have already conceded the game, but can't get out of it, since it's the only game in town. They are accustomed to letting the other team run all over them.
• Dispensational Christians add a wrinkle to the premillennial commitment to personal and corporate defeat. They sit in their own end-zones, and eagerly chat about an anticipated helicopter ride to the other end of the field, at which point they can sit back and watch the other team and the fans in the stadium engage in a riot.

My church is charismatic (something Scofield said was impossible) and postmillennial (something Scofield also denied). We have spun off an average of one daughter church a year for the last few decades. When The Wall came down, and the Soviet Bloc opened up, we relocated several campus ministers over there, and they founded several dozen churches. We expect great things from God, and attempt great things for God.

Be of good cheer, the best is yet to come! The future will be different, because of what we do today. Our children can grow up to be wiser, and happier, and more influential, than we were. And we can give ourselves to prayer that their children will go even further.

[Quix]

There is discussion over what "that which is perfect" or "when completeness comes" means. I tend to go with the completed Scriptures since their authority as the Word of God supersede any "sign" gifts that were needed prior to this happening.

GIFTS OF HOLY SPIRIT WERE TO EQUIP The Church for functioning in a sin-soaked world where-in satanic forces were having a field day.

It's NOT LOGICAL that God would leave His kids powerless when facing demonic forces.

Scripture speaks of a coming era when there WOULD BE A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING the POWER thereof.

We are smack in the middle of that era, now. Folks will either stand WITH HOLY SPIRIT IN POWER AGAINST the forces of darkeness

or

They'll rationalize about how wonderful and 'Biblical' a powerless 'Church' is before a watching world.

======================================================

In terms of that which is perfect comes . . .

I don't find that off the wall interpretation remotely logical.

======================================================

New International Version (©1984)
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever!

English Standard Version (©2001)
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Love never comes to an end. There is the gift of speaking what God has revealed, but it will no longer be used. There is the gift of speaking in other languages, but it will stop by itself. There is the gift of knowledge, but it will no longer be used.

King James Bible
Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

American King James Version
Charity never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

American Standard Version
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.

Bible in Basic English
Though the prophet's word may come to an end, tongues come to nothing, and knowledge have no more value, love has no end.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed.

Darby Bible Translation
Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be done away.

English Revised Version
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.

Webster's Bible Translation
Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are languages, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Weymouth New Testament
Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if there are languages, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be brought to an end.

World English Bible
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

Young's Literal Translation
The love doth never fail; and whether there be prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;

==========================================================

As of this point near the end of the church era . . . I think it should be OBVIOUS:

1. Christ Himself made clear that prophecies would continue through the whole of the END TIMES era--even increasing as The Day approached. He has not yet returned in the clouds NOR set foot on the Mt Of Olives . . .

2. THEREFORE old men shall continue to & even increasingly dream dreams, . . . young men . . . prophecy . . . And, in fact, that is what is happening.

3. KNOWLEDGE has *CERTAINLY*

*NOT:* come to an end; been done away with; become useless; been destroyed; vanished away; lost all its value; become no longer used; passed away as unnecessary.

4. THEREFORE, OBVIOUSLY, The "THAT WHICH IS PERFECT" *CANNOT* be Scripture.

5. Scripture describes The Messiah as the Perfect One.

=====================================================

I hate to say it, but some even today try to use such things to make everyone think they are holier than others or more blessed by God. They often preach a different Gospel, too, and many uninformed believers fall for their scheme and are lead away from the truth of Jesus Christ. That was definitely NOT how that was to happen in the church.

SO?

AND, Folks use NOT speaking in tongues similarly.
AND, Folks use NOT healing the sick similarly.
AND, Folks use NOT prophecying similarly.
AND, Folks use NOT discerning spirits similarly.
AND, Folks use NOT casting out demons similarly.
AND, Folks use NOT doing miracles similarly.
AND, Folks use NOT dreaming prophetic dreams similarly.

Whooop-T-Do!

When Jesus returns, HE WILL NOT be flattering folks about how their absurd constructions on Scripture bailed them out of speaking in tongues, prophecying, casting out demons, doing miracles . . .

He'll GREATLY MORE LIKELY be asking why they didn't do such and MORE of such. He PROVIDED FOR THE GIFTS TO EQUIP THE CHURCH TO MINISTER TO A HURTING, SIN-SOAKED, DEMONIZED WORLD . . .

A world in which

--MAN HAD NOT CHANGED HIS NATURE;
--SATAN HAD NOT CHANGED HIS NATURE NOR OPERATIONS;
AND

--GOD HAD NOT CHANGED HIS NATURE NOR OPERATIONS.

What excuse will folks have . . .

--Oh, Lord, it was that wife you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that commentary you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that denomination you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that bias you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that ignorance you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that thick-headedness you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that translation you gave me!
--Oh, Lord, it was that erroneous teaching you gave me!

None of such is gonna cut it to the least degree.

==================================================

New International Version (©1984)
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

New Living Translation (©2007)
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

International Standard Version (©2008)
"These are the signs that will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"These are the miraculous signs that will accompany believers: They will use the power and authority of my name to force demons out of people. They will speak new languages.

King James Bible
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

American King James Version
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

American Standard Version
And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;

Bible in Basic English
And these signs will be with those who have faith: in my name they will send out evil spirits; and they will make use of new languages;

Douay-Rheims Bible
And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues.

Darby Bible Translation
And these signs shall follow those that have believed: in my name they shall cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;

English Revised Version
And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Webster's Bible Translation
And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak in new languages;

Weymouth New Testament
And signs shall attend those who believe, even such as these. By making use of my name they shall expel demons. They shall speak new languages.

World English Bible
These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new languages;

Young's Literal Translation
'And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak;

---------------------------------------------

New International Version (©1984)
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

New Living Translation (©2007)
They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed."

English Standard Version (©2001)
they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

International Standard Version (©2008)
they will pick up snakes with their hands; even if they drink any deadly poison it will not hurt them; and they will place their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
They will pick up snakes, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them. They will place their hands on the sick and cure them."

King James Bible
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

American King James Version
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

American Standard Version
they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Bible in Basic English
They will take up snakes, and if there is poison in their drink, it will do them no evil; they will put their hands on those who are ill, and they will get well.

Douay-Rheims Bible
They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.

Darby Bible Translation
they shall take up serpents; and if they should drink any deadly thing it shall not injure them; they shall lay hands upon the infirm, and they shall be well.

English Revised Version
they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Webster's Bible Translation
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Weymouth New Testament
They shall take up venomous snakes, and if they drink any deadly poison it shall do them no harm whatever. They shall lay their hands on the sick, and the sick shall recover."

World English Bible
they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will in no way hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Young's Literal Translation
serpents they shall take up; and if any deadly thing they may drink, it shall not hurt them; on the ailing they shall lay hands, and they shall be well.'

===================================================

Where did this UNBiblical ASSUMPTION come from that . . . when was it . . . after John ran out of ink at the end of Revelation or after the Canon was decided 300+ years later . . . ??? . . . Where'd the idea come from that suddenly mankind would be so much more wonderful in character, INTELLECTUAL understanding, morals and spiritual sensibilities that Holy Spirit could go fishing until Jesus came back?

Oh, right . . . such ASSUMPTIONS come from the pit of hell. Satan's always been eager to neuter Believers. That hasn't changed A BIT, either.

I have decreasing patience with my own wimping out in such regards as well as the wholsale wimping out on the part of whole congregations, denominations etc.

May God have mercy!

Folks in foreign lands where demonic forces are mangling people and whole villages right and left DO NOT GIVE A FLIP ABOUT COMMENTARIES, ASSUMMPTIONS FROM HELL NOR ANY OTHER THEOLOGICAL HOGWASH FROM SEMINARIES/CEMETARIES!

THEY want their daughter healed; their son delivered. They desperately need the loaves and fishes multiplied. They want the mind-numbing tooth-ache healed.

Folks rationalizing about how that was for 'a different era,' can go suck rocks or pointy hats as far as such demon-mangled hurting people are concerned.

[Joya]

Thanks.

[Quix]

Why did Paul say to SEEK the best gifts?

He didn't. I Corinthians 12 says:

New International Version (©1984) But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. New Living Translation (©2007) So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts. But now let me show you a way of life that is best of all. English Standard Version (©2001) But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. New American Standard Bible (©1995) But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. International Standard Version (©2008) Keep on desiring the better gifts. And now I will show you the best way of all. GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) You [only] want the better gifts, but I will show you the best thing to do. King James Bible But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. American King James Version But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I to you a more excellent way. American Standard Version But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you. Bible in Basic English But let your desires be turned to the more important things given by the Spirit. And now I am pointing out to you an even better way. Douay-Rheims Bible But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way. Darby Bible Translation But desire earnestly the greater gifts, and yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence. English Revised Version But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And a still more excellent way shew I unto you. Webster's Bible Translation But covet earnestly the best gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way. Weymouth New Testament But always seek to excel in the greater gifts. And now I will point out to you a way of life which transcends all others. World English Bible But earnestly desire the best gifts. Moreover, I show a most excellent way to you. Young's Literal Translation and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you: Barnes' Notes on the Bible But covet earnestly - Greek "Be zealous for" Ζηλοῦτε Zēloute. This word, however, may be either in the indicative mood (ye do covet earnestly), or in the imperative, as in our translation. . . . ut there is no valid objection to the common translation in the imperative, and indeed the connection seems to demand it. Grotius renders it, "Pray to God that you may receive from him the best, that is, the most useful endowments." The sense seems to be this, "I have proved that all endowments in the church are produced by the Holy Spirit; and that he confers them as he pleases. I have been showing that no one should be proud or elated on account of extraordinary endowments; and that, on the other hand, no one should he depressed, or sad, or discontented, because he has a more humble rank. I have been endeavoring to repress and subdue the spirit of discontent, jealousy, and ambition; and to produce a willingness in all to occupy the station where God has placed you. But, I do not intend to deny that it is proper to desire the most useful endowments; that a man should wish to be brought under the influence of the Spirit, and qualified for eminent usefulness. I do not mean to say that it is wrong for a man to regard the higher gifts of the Spirit as valuable and desirable, if they may be obtained; nor that the spirit which seeks to excel in spiritual endowments and in usefulness, is improper. Yet all cannot be apostles; all cannot be prophets. I would not have you, therefore, seek such offices, and manifest a spirit of ambition. I would seek to regulate the desire which I would not repress as improper; and in order to that, I would show you that, instead of aspiring to offices and extraordinary endowments which are beyond your grasp, there is a way, more truly valuable, that is open to you all, and where all may excel." Paul thus endeavors to give a practicable and feasible turn to the whole subject, and further to repress the longings of ambition and the contentions of strife, by exciting emulation to obtain that which was accessible to them all, and "which, just in the proportion in which it was obtained," would repress discontent, and strife, and ambition, and produce order, and peace, and contentedness with their endowments and their lot, the main thing which he was desirous of producing in this chapter. This, therefore, is one of the "happy turns" in which the writings of Paul abounds. He did not denounce their zeal as wicked. He did not attempt at once to repress it. He did not say that it was wrong to desire high endowments. But he showed them an endowment which was more valuable than all the others; which was accessible to all; and which, if possessed, would make them contented, and produce the harmonious operation of all the parts of the church. That endowment was love. . Sounds like an exhortation to SEEK THE BEST gifts, to me.

[Belteshazzar]

Quix said,
“Evidently I don’t measure up sufficiently to your standard of Christian to merit significant dialogue with you.”

No, Quix, quite the opposite. I don’t measure up to your oft stated standards. You have made that sufficiently clear. After all, I am a “replacementarian” and now, evidently, a “cessationist” as well. I can hardly wait for the next label.