Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What need would the "immaculate" "Mother of God" have for a Savior?
Dangus ^ | 3-20-2011 | Dangus

Posted on 03/19/2011 10:57:34 PM PDT by dangus

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 341-353 next last
To: Claud

Christ wasn’t under the curse of original sin because he wasn’t conceived naturally. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, so he was sinless.

Your point about “Well, then, why can’t He apply the merits of the Cross to His mother *before* Calvary? Does God live in time? What does “before” and “after” mean to Him?” wouldn’t have any impact on her supposed sinlessness. The merits of the Cross remove the penalty of sin from a believer, but that doesn’t mean a believer will never sin again. Paul makes it clear that a believer still has the flesh nature within them that is at war with the Holy Spirit.

So, even if God said that Mary was redeemed before the Cross as you say, that wouldn’t mean that Mary never sinned.


61 posted on 03/20/2011 4:35:28 AM PDT by Turtlepower
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Turtlepower
Christ wasn’t under the curse of original sin because he wasn’t conceived naturally. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, so he was sinless.

It takes two to conceive, no? Are you asserting that Christ took no flesh from His mother?

So, even if God said that Mary was redeemed before the Cross as you say, that wouldn’t mean that Mary never sinned.

Hmm. I get your thinking, and I should have been more careful in my language. The work of the Cross involves two things: justification and sanctification. I, and most Catholics actually, consider the two of them together as the work of Redemption.

So Christ not only removes the penalty of sin (justification), he gradually makes us holy (sanctification/theosis). I am applying both of these to Mary when I am talking about the merits of Calvary. If she was perfected in grace, then she was both justified and sanctified, which meant she could not sin again, just as we will not sin again in heaven.

62 posted on 03/20/2011 4:44:31 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: All

I’m off to Mass in a bit, so I’ll try to resume the discussion later.


63 posted on 03/20/2011 4:45:59 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: kelly4c; Quix; dangus

Yep. Good point. I speak (here) as a Dominican who prays the Rosary daily (okay, ALMOST daily) and, especially this Lent, has added another Mariam “devotion” to my “rule.”

Mary is, IMHO, a beautiful and awesome creation, but, again IMHO, one cannot begin to appreciate her unless one is devoted also to the unmerited Love God brought into the world in His Son.

Quix knows I am skeptical, even dubious, about visions and visionaries. But I can well imagine, not that anyone in heaven is subject to the passion of grief (for God will wipe away every tear and there will be no sorrow or weeping), but to the action of loving concern for all who do not understand that Mary Most Holy is entirely derivative and has nothing that is not given her.

I have a much loved friend who is a musician. He understands that when I praise his work and its power I am praising him.


64 posted on 03/20/2011 4:48:11 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: bibletruth

I don’t think you’ll find a well-edumicated Catholic who disagrees. To call Mary “Theotokos” or “Deipara” is to proclaim the wonder and mystery of the Incarnation.

This coming Friday, 3/25, we Catholics have our second Lenten feast. (Yesterday we celebrated St. Joseph.) It is the Annunciation. That’s not a Marian feast, it’s a feast of the Incarnation.

The self-emptying (Phillipians 2) of Him who was begotten outside of time, leads us to praise Him and everything about Him. His mother is one of those “things about Him” whom we praise.


65 posted on 03/20/2011 5:03:00 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: johngrace

Your tagline says it all about you realm of belief and worship. You follow a perverted version of the Bible. Because since I am saved , I also am a son of God, part if the family of God. I am, however, not His begotten son. Words matter and newer versions of the Bible corrupt those words. Have faith in a non virgin woman who had sinned if you like...


66 posted on 03/20/2011 5:12:56 AM PDT by Leader_Of_The _Conservatives (High time to bring back the sons (and daughters) of liberty!!!! SP4P2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Claud
Oh? I cannot find recorded anywhere in the WHOLE of the Bible that Mary ever sinned.

If I remember correctly, Catholic doctrine holds that we are all born in original sin, i.e., the sin of our parents in conceiving us. (Which is why infant baptism is practiced - to absolve that infant of original sin.) Matthew 12:46: While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.

This implies that at sometime AFTER Christ's birth, Joseph knew Mary in the Biblical sense.

67 posted on 03/20/2011 6:20:51 AM PDT by knittnmom (Save the earth! It's the only planet with chocolate!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Markos33

>> Then, how was the curse of Adam circumvented in Mary’s lineage? <<

God said so?

>> And, are you saying that contact with sinners would’ve made Christ unholy? <<

No, I’m saying that to be born of an impure person would have offended Christ’s divinity.

Jesus had a little more than contact with Mary. He became flesh of her flesh and blood of her blood. You do know that a baby shares its mother’s very blood, don’t you? Any impurity in the mother’s blood passes to the baby, which is why mothers can’t drink and even have to very careful which medications they take.

Now, Jesus certainly was greatly mistreated during his life. But that was PERMITTED by God, not COMMITTED by God. It was evil that he was mistreated, and God cannot perform evil.


68 posted on 03/20/2011 7:45:08 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Just mythoughts

>> Might even say that Mary’s overflowing perfect grace came from Christ. <<

Absolutely. But Christ pre-existed Mary.


69 posted on 03/20/2011 7:46:47 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: dangus; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...

Still busy constructing those skyscrapers of farcical ‘theology’ on slivers of toothpicks of Scripture having nothing to do with the skyscraper.

Fascinating in dreary, sad sort of way.


70 posted on 03/20/2011 7:50:00 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Just mythoughts

>> I mean really here we have Paul, sinner indeed, elected to pen the majority of the ‘NEW’ Testament, and all his Epistles instruct that salvation comes from the Heavenly Father in Christ... and then imagine Paul says allllll have sinned and short of the glory, that ‘grace’ comes from Christ. <<

It’s been explained that Paul isn’t saying what Protestants scandalously insist he is saying. But, yes, if Paul HAD contradicted the gospels, the gospels would’ve remained, and Paul’s writings would’ve been given the boot, even though Paul’s letters were likely penned before at least two or three of the gospels.


71 posted on 03/20/2011 7:50:21 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: dangus; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...

This girl’s Heavenly visitation/vision is AT LEAST as valid as a long list of RC such.


72 posted on 03/20/2011 7:50:39 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Just mythoughts

Your post is nonsensical to me, including your question.


73 posted on 03/20/2011 7:51:58 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Just mythoughts

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.


74 posted on 03/20/2011 7:53:19 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: PrepareToLeave

>> If Mary was immaculately concieved, it would have been by the Holy Spirit which would make her God as Jesus is God. <<

Says who? Were Adam and Eve God? Are the angels God?


75 posted on 03/20/2011 7:53:47 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: dangus
Besides, the purpose of this article isn’t to prove that Mary did not sin, but merely to refute arguments that she did.

If the bible doesn't specifically say that a person other than Jesus sinned and/or is a sinner, then is there a biblical argument that that person is without sin? If so then there is no point to this discussion because there is no real interest in the bible here.

76 posted on 03/20/2011 7:53:55 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (My dad put his arm around me like that once, to this very day he wears orthopedic shirts.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Markos33

>> BTW - If Mary were here in the flesh....I’m sure that she would slap your face. There’s no more sublime manner to be redeemed than Christ’s death on the cross. <<

You actually think that it’s better to have sinned and be imputed as holy, than never to have sinned at all? To have committed evil, so that Christ must pay for that evil with his own agony and death, than never to have committed evil? Certainly, Christ’s show of love is far greater to we who are redeemed by his suffering and death, but how much more sublime it would have been if we had not killed him with our evil.


77 posted on 03/20/2011 7:58:15 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: dangus

In dealing with Catholic beliefs about Mary on must remember he is dealing with people who follow popes who make pilgrimages to the grave on one who believes:

1. It was through the Blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world.

2. Because Mary remained hidden during her life she is called by the Holy Spirit and the Church “Alma Mater”, Mother hidden and unknown. So great was her humility that she desired nothing more upon earth than to remain unknown to herself and to others, and to be known only to God.

3. In answer to her prayers to remain hidden, poor and lowly, God was pleased to conceal her from nearly every other human creature in her conception, her birth, her life, her mysteries, her resurrection and assumption. Her own parents did not really know her; and the angels would often ask one another, “Who can she possibly be?”, for God had hidden her from them, or if he did reveal anything to them, it was nothing compared with what he withheld.

4. God the Father willed that she should perform no miracle during her life, at least no public one, although he had given her the power to do so. God the Son willed that she should speak very little although he had imparted his wisdom to her. Even though Mary was his faithful spouse, God the Holy Spirit willed that his apostles and evangelists should say very little about her and then only as much as was necessary to make Jesus known.


78 posted on 03/20/2011 8:05:11 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (My dad put his arm around me like that once, to this very day he wears orthopedic shirts.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Quix
She said, “Why are you worshiping me? Why, if I do not have any power! Why are you worshiping me? I do not do anything! Do not worship me! Do not bow before me! For I cannot save you! The only one that can save, the only one that can redeem you is Jesus, who died for all mankind!

Then it's all good, because we don't worship her. We thank her, we ask her to put in a good word for us with her boy, we recognize that she was the best woman who ever lived, and we know that God esteemed her so greatly that in heaven she is clothed her with the sun and crowned her with stars (Revelation 12:1), but we don't worship her; that's something quite different.

I don't believe this "vision" anyway. The Scripture is pretty clear that in heaven nobody sits around weeping in pain. There is no more crying or tears. Do you seriously imagine the Savior is going to let his mother spend thousands of years doing nothing but crying and suffering?

79 posted on 03/20/2011 8:07:40 AM PDT by ottbmare (off-the-track Thoroughbred mare)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: dangus

The Blessed Virgin Mary held within her, the most Holy Son of God and Son of Man.

Of course she was pure to be the Ark of the New Covenant.

“Hail Mary, full of grace.” is how the Archangel Gabriel greeter her.

How could the Blessed Virgin Mary be “full of grace” if she had sin on her soul?


80 posted on 03/20/2011 8:10:15 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 341-353 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson