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To: GiovannaNicoletta
First…

I agree with everything the author says in this paragraph except what he says the Lordship position is. What is child-like faith like? I would say three words summarize it: innocent, trusting, and obedient. It’s the faith that allows a young child to jump into daddy’s arms from a height that would hurt if he missed. Yes, some children will have to step down a few levels to jump. Some will be less attentive than others. But child-like faith is willing to obey. The obedience isn’t a precondition, it’s a natural result.

Second… With respect to salvation, repentance is a change of mind regarding the Person and work of Christ."

I think this is the part of the argument that is mostly semantics. I would probably call it a “change of mind and heart” and add “and regarding my sin” to the end, but I could live with your statement. I will then ask a question similar to one you like to throw at the Lordship position. How much understanding of the Person and work of Christ do I need to have in order to change my mind? Do I have to understand he paid for my sins? Wouldn’t that mean I would have to understand I’m a sinner? Do I have to believe that Jesus is Lord? (That is the Person of Christ I know.) Where exactly do you draw the line?

Also, is it just a change of mind that is needed? Isn’t it possible for someone to decide “those Christians were right about Jesus, but I don’t care. I just want to party now”? That person changed his mind; is he saved? Isn’t a change of heart needed as well?

Repentance is our heart turning away from the way we were going and toward Christ. Commitment is believing the facts of the Gospel and believing those facts apply to me.

Third… If complete commitment and yielding to Christ is an initial prerequisite for salvation, then there is no such thing as a believer who is carnal or not completely surrendered to Christ.

The call is to complete commitment and yielding. The reality is always less than that until eternity. That doesn’t change the call.

Fourth, Lordship Salvation confuses sanctification with justification.

False. We just believe that step two begins immediately upon salvation and is not optional.

Fifth, Lordship Salvation destroys the believer's assurance of salvation.

Sin destroys a believer’s assurance.

We do believe it is dangerous to offer unreserved assurance based upon a past prayer or profession of faith to someone who is living in a carnal manner. They might be carnal Christians or they might just be carnal. Practicing proper church discipline would help sort that out. The Apostle Paul even tells the carnal Christians to “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith.” (1 Cor 13:5 - NKJV)

I don’t give people assurance based on a profession of faith because only God knows the heart, and the heart is the real issue. I tell them to examine themselves – if the fruit of the Spirit is being produced then the Holy Spirit is in them. How do I know I’m saved? I see how God has changed me.

20 posted on 03/19/2011 3:18:47 PM PDT by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: Gil4
How much understanding of the Person and work of Christ do I need to have in order to change my mind? Do I have to understand he paid for my sins? Wouldn’t that mean I would have to understand I’m a sinner? Do I have to believe that Jesus is Lord? (That is the Person of Christ I know.) Where exactly do you draw the line?

What does Jesus say about it? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That's all. Salvation is based on faith alone, that Jesus Christ paid a person's sin debt in full and that payment is all that is required for salvation. Nowhere does Jesus say anything that a person needs anything more than simple faith.

If in-depth knowledge about Jesus and Scripture and theology are requirements for salvation, then the vast majority of the world will never have the opportunity for salvation. And that contradicts the Bible.

And where do you draw the line with the amount of knowledge one has to have in order to be saved? Where is that line drawn?

Also, is it just a change of mind that is needed? Isn’t it possible for someone to decide “those Christians were right about Jesus, but I don’t care. I just want to party now”? That person changed his mind; is he saved? Isn’t a change of heart needed as well?

Sometimes it can be difficult to just accept the simplicity of the free gift of salvation that Christ offers. We like to think that there must be something more to salvation than what Christ said.

But God simply said, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.". God never said that salvation requires anything other than the simple faith that Jesus Christ died in our place and paid our sin debt. Changes in the heart and spiritual maturity come after the individual has the little bit of faith it takes to believe that Jesus' death on the cross is sufficient for payment of sin.

The call is to complete commitment and yielding. The reality is always less than that until eternity. That doesn’t change the call.

The natural, unregenerate man is incapable of being committed and yielded to Christ. That commitment and yielding is known as "sanctification" and is the work of the Holy Spirit throughout a person's life after he has been saved. There is not one passage in the Bible that supports the belief that a person has to be "committed" and "yielded" before he can be saved. It is impossible for someone who does not know Christ as Savior and who has not settled his sin debt to be "committed" and "yielded" to God. It simply does not happen.

We do believe it is dangerous to offer unreserved assurance based upon a past prayer or profession of faith to someone who is living in a carnal manner.

God, thankfully, does give that assurance.

Paul exhaustively argued in Romans 7 in favor of eternal security, explaining the dual nature of man, how often we fall short, how we do what we hate while knowing it is wrong, all the time hating ourselves for sinning.

Paul says, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. . . . For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Having explained the exact nature of the conflict with the old man experienced by every Christian, Paul cries out in despair, "O wretched man that I am, Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" before answering his own question and confirming that sin is a continuing part of a saved Christian's earthly existence:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

In context, Romans 7 teaches that the struggle with sin is evidence one IS walking after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 is the promise that there is no condemnation for such a one who struggles with sin.

I am certain of my eternal destiny irrespective of my current state of sinlessness or vice-versa. Jesus didn't save me on one day, for one day -- and then leave the rest up to me. That flies in the face of both logic and experience, even before one turns to Scripture for confirmation.

Church discipline may have a place with carnality, but one also has to be careful to remain true to Scripture when dealing with issues like someone living a carnal life.

22 posted on 03/19/2011 4:15:30 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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