I wish I had time for a good debate right now, but I don’t. I was kept up most of the all night and got very little sleep. I may try to get back to this in a day or two.
Let me sum up my thoughts in a too-short way. The Church has made a terrible mistake by “theologizing” salvation. We talk about it as salvation which is by grace alone (and Yes and Amen to that!) and then sanctification and later glorification — which is all true — but our problem is that we talk about “it.” An “it”, not a “Him.” Jesus Christ is life to all who trust in Him. He *is* salvation. His Name is Yeshua... remember what that word means?
Jesus doesn’t have some salvation in His pocket and when someone asks He reaches in and pulls out a handful. It’s HIM, it’s all about Him. It is about walking with Him, talking with Him, listening to Him, basking in His love and loving Him back.
The debate about “Lordship Salvation” completely misses the point. The discussion all revolves around “it” and you can get a Lordship preacher and a non-Lordship preacher in the same room and have a rousing argument... and never mention Jesus once.
The word “repent” in Greek is metanoia, “change the mind.” Most preachers have said that this means to change your mind about sin. But that is impossible for the unsaved. Only the Holy Spirit can convict of sin and bring someone in. It is much more a changing of the mind about *Jesus.* I didn’t know Him, didn’t care about Him, didn’t appreciate Him... and Jesus did WHAT for me??? Salvation is the Holy Spirit tackling someone with His love and saying “Here is Jesus! This is what He did for you! This is Who He is! This is how much He loves you!” and the reply, with trembling lips, is “Dear God... Yes!”
The Lordship guys want some level of pre-commitment to make sure they are REALLY SERIOUS. Impossible for the unregenerate.
The non-Lordship guys are just so eager for the lost person to pray “THE MAGIC PRAYER” that will say anything to get the person to repeat it. Regardless of the sins they are holding onto.
True story: I met a man from a church who was raving about a “new technique” some traveling evangelist had taught them. This “evangelist” — and I use that word lightly — had said the best way to get someone saved is to lead the person in “THE” prayer *whether the person meant it or not.* According to this evangelist/false teacher, the person would be magically converted even if they didn’t believe that Jesus was the Son of God when they started the prayer. No joke!
I would argue that BOTH the Lordship guys and the non-Lordship guys are completely wrong. One of them has the right train on the wrong track and the other has the wrong train on the right track and the whole thing is a trainwreck.
Grace is way, way, way bigger than this. Jesus is totally, radically, insanely, so much of grace that if you meet Him, I mean REALLY MEET HIM, and He falls on you... there is no going back. There is no earning. No levels of pre-commitment. No praying magic words and maybe something will stick. Salvation is JESUS falling on you in the person of the Holy Spirit, forgiving you and giving you Himself. It is a grace, love, relationship, mind-changing reality-shattering God-encounter.
True salvation — Jesus Himself — and the clinical arguments of Lordship vs. non-Lordship are as far apart as the brilliant flash the very moment God spoke light into existance... and a used physics textbook. The textbook can only dissect what the author thinks he knows, the reality of which is incomprehensible.
Lordship salvation says that unless a person exhibits perfect works all the time, then they cannot be saved.
The reality is is that sanctification occurs over a lifetime, not in a moment when a person makes the choice to accept Christ's death on the cross as payment for his sin. A person's life does indeed change after salvation, but for some it takes years and years, depending on their circumstances and the person himself and for others it happens quickly. God knows us better than we know ourselves and only God knows how to grow each and every person spiritually. It is not for others to judge.
A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.
Salvation is the condition a person is in after they make the choice to accept Christ as Savior. No one is claiming that Christ is somehow detached from the salvation that only He can provide.
“I would argue that BOTH the Lordship guys and the non-Lordship guys are completely wrong.”
It sounds like you’re really a Lordship salvation guy who has heard too many distortions and characatures of the Lordship position.
RE: “The Lordship guys want some level of pre-commitment to make sure they are REALLY SERIOUS. Impossible for the unregenerate.”
1. There is no “pre-commitment.” True faith is a commitment of the heart to Jesus, it’s not a vote of “maybe” or “present.” It’s what happens when the the seed falls on the good soil. It starts growing immediately and it produces fruit.
2. Of course it’s impossible for the unregenerate. They are dead in sins. If your gospel is something that expects the unregenerate to respond apart from God working a miracle in their hearts, it’s no gospel at all.
3. The no-lordship position often gives assurance of salvation to those who act more like the seed that fell on the rocky soil or among the weeds. (No, I don’t think that’s talking about carnal Christians. I think it’s talking about those who went out from us because they weren’t of us.) They haven’t been to church in years, they live just like the world, but they “got saved” 15 years ago. “How do you know you got saved.” “I went forward one Sunday, prayed a prayer. Even got baptised, too.”
But do you love Jesus? That’s the real question. And if you love Jesus, why don’t you love His people? If you love Jesus, why don’t you obey him? Loving and obeying Jesus is the true source of assurance of salvation, not having prayed the “magic prayer,” as you called it.