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To: spunkets; smvoice; Campion; NYer

spunkets:

Nowhere in my post did I say that God only reconciled a few as I am not a Hyper Predestination kind of guy, i.e. God reconciled a few elect and those he did not he created for the purpose of sending into hell.

St. Paul speaks of a ministry of reconciliation, which is linked to the authority Christ gave the Apostles to forgive sins in his name as recorded in St. John’s Gospel [cf John 20: 21-23] and the authority to bind and loose as recorded in St. Mathew’s Gospel [cf. Mt 18:18]. In addition, St. James in his Epistle (cf. James 5:13-17] clearly refers to both “Confession” and “Annointing of the Sick” which are both in Catholic Theology Sacraments of Reconciliation and the context of the passage starting in verse 13 is “to call the presbyters of the Church” so the “confess your sins directive” related to the ministry of reconciliation/confession that Christ gave to the Church.

Finally, I will not link all the Church Fathers who interpreted Christ statements such as above to refer to the fact that Christ gave His Church the authority to forgive sins as they are many and thus the Church and the Sacraments are thuse the “normative instrument” thru which God reconciles humanity back to himself despite your “protests” otherwise.


23 posted on 03/09/2011 6:06:11 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: CTrent1564
"St. Paul speaks of a ministry of reconciliation, which is linked to the authority Christ gave the Apostles to forgive sins in his name

There was no such authority given to the Apostles exclusively, nor are folks to forgive in anyone elses name- including in God's name. They are to forgive the sins of others in their own name and the ministry of reconciliation was given to all. What is written in the Gospels is God's word to all, not just the few, or a few.

"... as recorded in St. John’s Gospel [cf John 20: 21-23]

John 20:23, "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” This passage has more than one meaning, because it's not fundamental. It could mean that if someone does not forgive somone else's sin(s), the sin may rest on the one who failed to do as they were requested by God. In that event, the person who chose not to forgive, based their decision on values that conflicted with those of those held by the Holy Spirit. The passage could also mean that the one that makes the decision not to forgive does hold the same values of the Holy Spirit and God Himself will not forgive, as per the fundamental statement on the matter given by God in Matt 12:32, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

"...and the authority to bind and loose as recorded in St. Mathew’s Gospel [cf. Mt 18:18]."

God did not come to teach the few; He came to teach the many- all of them. His words were addressed to all, not just the few who have taken it upon themselves to monopolize and userp the gifts of sentience, rationality and free will that were given with the gift of creation. It is the epitome of arrogance to claim that the Keys to the Kingdom, were given to anyone other than the individual whose own decisions will be judged by God.

"In addition, St. James in his Epistle (cf. James 5:13-17] clearly refers to both “Confession” and “Annointing of the Sick” which are both in Catholic Theology Sacraments of Reconciliation and the context of the passage starting in verse 13 is “to call the presbyters of the Church” so the “confess your sins directive” related to the ministry of reconciliation/confession that Christ gave to the Church.

James concludes... James 5:16, "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." It's clear that James analysis and conclusion are in opposition to yours, which calls for an exclusivity in both an order to praying and healing foreign to James.

"Finally, I will not link all the Church Fathers who interpreted Christ statements such as above to refer to the fact that Christ gave His Church the authority to forgive sins"

Democracy is not a logical operation. The truth of a concluison can not be jusitfied by appealing to the decisions made by any particular, or anonymous multitudes of individual(s). The truth of the matter must depend only on the evidence supporting the conclusion.

The fundamental and universally applicable writ on the matter, addressed to all and applying to all, is the following from Matt 6:14, "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."

24 posted on 03/09/2011 7:04:08 PM PST by spunkets
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To: CTrent1564
... thus the Church and the Sacraments are thuse the “normative instrument” thru which God reconciles humanity back to himself."

As per above, this conclusion is not supported by the evidence, unless the instrument is the presentation of counter-examples to what God taught, to provide for confusion and other effective stumbling blocks.

"... despite your “protests” otherwise."

I simply presented what is written and presented the matter with clear logic and evidence. That is not protest.

25 posted on 03/09/2011 7:26:08 PM PST by spunkets
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