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To: MarkBsnr

Consider the case of the pastor of one of the largest Catholic parishes in San Francisco. Eleven men accused him of having sexually molested them when they were boys. In March of 1994, following an investigation, the bishop of San Francisco relieved the priest of his duties. The following year the San Francisco District Attorney’s Office brought criminal charges against the same priest, charging him with having embezzled $251,000 from Catholic parishioners and from the Church.

If these offenses did in fact occur, would the debauched condition of the priest invalidate the thousands of sacraments performed by him during the two decades that the crimes spanned? Did parishioners whose children had been baptized by him begin inquiring whether their children should be rebaptized? Did those who had given money for Masses to be said for their deceased relatives in purgatory start asking for refunds? Did Catholics who had confessed their sins to the priest begin to wonder if their transgressions had really been absolved?

Roman Catholicism teaches that sacramental grace is dispensed from the work performed. The ability of a rite to confer grace is independent of the spiritual condition of the minister who performs it. Consequently, the sacraments this priest administered are valid according to Roman Catholic teaching.

One of the most shameless applications of this Roman Catholic doctrine rocked Ireland in November of 1994. A 68-year-old Roman Catholic priest had a heart attack while visiting the Incognito, a gay bathhouse in Dublin that advertises itself as “Ireland’s most famous male-only sauna club.” Responding to calls for help, two other Catholic priests emerged from private rooms in the club to give the dying man the Last Rites.

One must ask, Is this Christianity? Would the Church have us believe that two men, interrupted in their homosexual activities, can benefit a third man dying on the tiled floor of a gay bathhouse by performing rituals over him?


203 posted on 03/01/2011 6:54:09 PM PST by wolfman
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To: wolfman
One must ask, Is this Christianity? Would the Church have us believe that two men, interrupted in their homosexual activities, can benefit a third man dying on the tiled floor of a gay bathhouse by performing rituals over him?

Whooo. That is a tough one. I have six kids, myself, and the oldest three serve at Mass, yet I am leading the effort in the diocese to erase the tributes to the past bishop - not because he was ever proved guilty, but because he enabled a couple of predators. The current bishop knows me a whole lot better than he really would like, let's put it that way. I embarassed him at a diocesan meeting on Sunday and put his sorry ass on the spot about a number of issues. It is not about the hierarchs (the Eastern Orthodox have this handled better than we do), it is about the Deposit of the Faith in the people of God. The saying goes back to the third or fourth century: the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. We believe it true.

Remember the parable of the talents - to whom much is given, much is expected.

The Church teaches that because every man is a sinner, the efforts that a sinful priest makes in distributing the Sacraments are not about him, but about the perfection of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit who watches over the Church of Jesus Christ and the faithful. So, bad priests can still go through the Consecration of the Eucharist, for example, because it is not him that does anything, but the Holy Spirit, on whom we depend.

Let us look at it from a once saved always saved perspective. If the individual is a true believer, he will still sin and sometimes sin grievously, admits the belief. What if that sin includes homosexual promiscuity in bathhouses? Does that invalidate the OSAS belief? Or does one believe that no sin is permitted? If so, show me the man. Jesus didn't find one.

Or the Calvinist predestined to heaven belief. Even Calvin says that the elected selected elite will sin. Does that include bathhouses? How do you know?

For us, we have the Gospels and the rest of the NT through the prism of the Gospels and the OT through the lens of the New. And we have the Church given to us by Jesus and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Is the Church culpable in thousands of incidents over the years? You bet. Does that make these three odious gentlemen right? Nope. They are all going or have gone to their Judgement.

205 posted on 03/01/2011 7:18:55 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: wolfman; MarkBsnr
Simple answer to your question -- these guys are criminals, sinners of the worse kind and it's good they are defrocked. However, we believe that whenever there is action performed through them, it is the Holy Spirit working, not the frail, sinful being that is the pastor/priest.

The two sinners did not "benefit" the third sinner, but it was the Holy Spirit in the action of the Last Rites that did the "benefits".

The priest, i.e. the ministerial priest (as we are all a royal priesthood, lay priests if you will) are still sinners. They have no special abilities -- they are in the end tools and yet also sub or assistant shepherds to the Main Shepherd (i.e. Jesus Christ)

We are not a group that depends on the pastors, we are dependent on the One Lord, Jesus Christ, so if there are debauched criminals or worse as priests, that failing of the asst. shepherds does not detract from the Main Shepherd's goodness.

A final note -- these "asst. shepherds" who do not do their duty well will burn in a hotter part of hell than an ordinary sinner -- not only did they fail as sinners and not repent, but they failed in their duty to shepherd His flock.

210 posted on 03/02/2011 12:01:30 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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