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Posted on 02/26/2011 10:21:36 AM PST by Natural Law
With the rise of many new and highly exclusive caucuses, such as the Sola Fide Caucus, it is important for Catholics to understand and accept the root of these exclusions, not to criticize, but to illuminate and to compare and contrast the issues that have divided Christendom for over 500 years. I will not go into significant depth but hope that the ensuing dialog will.
Differences in Catholics/Protestants viewpoint
Difference 1: Faith Is Not Enough - Catholic/Orthodox teaching says certain works (rituals or sacraments are needed to be saved. Protestants say sincere faith is all that is needed.
“What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?...You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone...faith without deeds is dead.” (Jas. 2:14-26)
Difference 2: Salvation Is A Process. - Catholic/Orthodox teaching emphasizes the process of salvation. Protestants emphasize salvation as an event. Catholics emphasize a process of salvation while Protestant teaching more often refers to salvation as an event in time when we were forgiven (justification) followed by the process of becoming holy (sanctification)
“When an unclean spirit goes out of someone it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finding it none, it says, ‘I shall return to my home from which I came.” But upon returning it finds it swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and brings back seven other spirits more wicked than itself who move in and dwell there and the condition of that person is worse than the first.” (Lk 11:24-26)
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” (Phil 2:12)
Difference 3: No Assurance of Salvation. - Catholics believe that there is no assurance of Salvation which is why we have the Sacrament of Penance. We recognize that the love of Christ requires that we remain obedient to His commands. Jesus, as perfected in the Beatitudes, spoke very clearly about the way we needed to conduct our lives in order to attain heaven. Mainstream Protestants, by contrast, emphasize that since their salvation rests wholly on the mercy of Christ and that they can be sure they are going to heaven as long as they continue in repentance and faith. Some Protestants differ even more radically with the belief in the Perseverance of the Saints, the claim that once saved Salvation cannot be lost or forfeited by actions, sin or lack of works. ”
“It is the one who endures to the end who will be saved.” (Mt 10:22, 24:13)
Difference 4: Justification Combined With Salvation. - Catholics often treat justification and sanctification as one thing. Protestants treat them separately. Orthodox teaches that justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (becoming holy) are one process which they call theosis. Catholic Teaching, combines justification (forgiveness of sins) with sanctification (becoming holy): justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
Difference Five: There is no Salvation outside the Church. - The Catholic Church teaches that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Protestant doctrine is the antithesis of this. The teaching that one cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church is founded in every Scripture passage citing Jesus Christ, and the the Church He founded as necessary for salvation. Prior to the Protestant Reformation in the 1500’s and from the time of Christ, all Christians who were not practicing heretical or pagan beliefs were members of the Catholic Church. Not only is it thus noted in Scripture but also by the early Church fathers:
Ignatius of Antioch
"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
"In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).
"[The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it—men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place [i.e., the Catholic Church]" (ibid., 4:33:7–8).
Clement of Alexandria
"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).
"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church" (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).
"When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church" (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).
"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you" [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark" (ibid., 73[71]:11).
Jerome
"Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church" (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).
Augustine
"We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).
"[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).
"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).
"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]). "Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him" (ibid., 141:5).
I think the stated rules on the Religion Moderator’s homepage work just fine.
No. It is a thread that is illegitimately labeled "caucus."
The point of the article and the discussion is to counter Protestant beliefs. The article itself says so, and then demonstrates that by speaking on behalf of Protestants about what they believe.
You are obviously trolling for opposition, NL, and then you try to use a gimmick to prevent comment by those you are trolling against.
I am probably the most pro-Catholic Protestant on this Religion Forum, and I think you are injuring your cause with these shenanigans. Please reconsider what you are doing.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
The purpose of this as a Caucus thread is specifically to understand what is meant by Sola Fide from a Catholic perspective so that there is no need for Catholics to intrude into the Sola Fide Caucus. There is absolutely no valid or rational reason why a Catholics only discussion of "Sola Fide", Sola Scriptura or any other non-Catholic theology or doctrine is forbidden.
For the life of me, I just don’t grasp why.
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." -- James 1:8
Agreed.
This thread clearly breaks the rules of the Caucus designation.
On this thread there is a valid, rational reason because your article violates the caucus rules. It directly and by name takes Protestants to task and even seeks to speak for them.
Do you see the difference between 1 and 2 below:
1. Catholics believe that salvation is a process. We cite the verse about unclean spirits.
2. Catholics believe that salvation is a process and that Protestants are wrong.
The Catholic/Orthodox caucus just came off this thread. When will it come off of the other thead with sola fide in the title?
Good question, huh?
Therefore, it is rational to have a thread about immersion baptism that would be labeled "Immersion Baptism caucus."
Since there are, in America, so many denominations that practice it, that listing them all would be unwieldy and would take up more than the limited number of spaces permitted for the title of any Free Republic article.
It's structured to permit exclusive discussion of your own beliefs, NL. It's not structured to permit exclusive discussion of somebody else's beliefs. That would be tantamount to taunting someone under a gag order, and very unfair.
To both of you:
I am on record saying that I am 100% behind Protestants on this board labeling a caucus thread as Calvinist, Reformed, Congregational, Baptist, Pentecostal, Dispensationalist, etc, etc, as that saves me time as I, and I would think the majority of Catholics and our Close Eastern Orthodox Brothers and Sisters have no interest in the theological positions of those groups and I, and I would conjecture most Catholics and Orthodox Here, would avoid those threads all together. If someone wants a theological discussion, then label it ecumenical and that solves it.
The problem with the Sola Scriptura Caucus is that implicit in in that label is a Doctrinal Difference between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, the two Apostolic Churches, vs. the 16th century Protestant groups and the off-shoots from those 16th century groups who hold to the Doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”.
Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not accept “Sola Scriptura” thus the very nature of how some Protestants are labeling some threads is making a doctrinal distinction.
Why can’t the Protestants on this forum label their caucus threads by their particular branch of Protestantism, i.e. Calvinist, Congregational, Baptist, Rapture-Dispensationalist, MegaChurch, Health-Welfare Church [Joel Osteen and Ken Copeland type sects], Pentecostal, etc, etc.
That is a clearer caucus label than saying “Sola Scriptura Caucus” which is not the name of any Protestant community that I am aware of, it is a “Doctrinal position” held by those various “Protestant communities and groups.”
This resulted in the practice of one railroad company encircling a city with track to in effect lock a competitor out of that market as well as to monopolization in coal, mining, timber and other areas of trade. They were ultimately removed because they proved to be counter productive to the original objective.
The current practice in the forum of allowing any caucus to monopolize any topic is not any different.
Hail Mary full of grapes?
I think the answer would be, when hell freezes over.
So is that called discrimination?
Justification in Paul and James (SOLA FIDE CAUCUS
Hopefully, FR is not joining the discrimination against Catholics.
"Christian" is a label that is an implicit doctrinal difference with Judaism. We share a common canon in the Old Testament, at least Protestants do. We split over the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Messiah.
Are you sure you want to open that door?
Hail Mary full of grapes?
Meaning . . .
“full of grace”
seems to have very elastic meanings for the RC’s.
Most of them rather UNBiblical, when it comes to the caricatured, presumed, pretend Mary personage.
If there is a clear reference to Catholicism, particularly an unfavorable one, I’d think it undeserving of a Caucus designation. If it merely covers the various interpretations without noting origin and without any negative connotation, it’s fair to leave it as is.
CT- Thank you. This is exactly the position I was building to.
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