That’s right, all means all!!
[[You do know, don’t you, that those verses about Esau and Jacob are referring to them as nations and don’t have anything at all to do with the individual salvation of either of those two persons?]]
It is about individual salvation- each individual in those two nations was eaither loved of God or Hated- both Jacob and Esau were their nation’s representatives- God hated the one, loved the other, and so went the nations. God can not love sin- He can love the sinner, inthat He has provided a way out of sin for everyoen that will accept, but He KNEW beforehand who will and will not aaccept. Even if you take the position that ‘hate’ simply means ‘loved less’, then how does ‘God so loved the world’? Some He ‘loved more than others’? The more loved one shall inherit the kingdom of God, but hte less one won’t? Whether you think Hate means hate, or ‘less loved’ it still means the one shall inherit, while the other won’t, which was all known beforehand by omniscient God
“Does God hate the sin and love the sinner? I refer you first of all to Revelation 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” If God genuinely loves the sinner but hates the sin, why are sinners cast into the furnace of eternal torment?”
The nation of Jacob, will receive their inheratence, Jacob’s nation will not. both Jacob and Esau were born in sin, yet God, for His own reasons and divine purposes, chose to change the heart of one, while keeping unchanged, the heart of the other.
“But here is more on this verse.
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ,)
Now read this for comparison:
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me”
[[What a tangled web Calvin and those who followed him have weaved. The sovereign God has called all to repentance, not a select few.]]
Has He called All? Where in His word does it say this? The only place it says ‘all’ is ‘whosoever’ shall call upon Him- Does ‘world’ mean Everyone? or ‘All’?
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”
It’s pretty clear from the above verse, that ‘world’ does not infact mean ‘all’ or ‘everyone’
[[God’s grace and love and mercy are poured out through Jesus Christ on all of humanity,]]
Really? I haven’t read that anywhere in God’s word- His word and grace, according to the bible, however, Is available to ALL who will call upon His name
you know, it’s fien that you and I might have dissagreements, but let’s not throw out barbs by insinuating that one congregation or another is ‘twisted’ in it’s thinking, and ‘deceitful’- when it comes to difficult passages and meanings, we MUST remember, that we are goign to see as though through a glass darkly- not everythign is going to be crystal clear- clear cut-
I’m not saying I’m 100% right, and I’m not saying you’re 100% right- there may be truth in both positions ultimately- the subject of Soveriegnty isw aq VERY difficult one, one hwich theologians have been wrestling with for many thousands of years- let’
s be civil enough to recognize the difficulty on both sides of the issue- state what we beleive, or htink, for the sake of discussion, and leave it at that
Anotgher Verse
“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”
Does ‘all’ mean ‘all’? Can we at least agree that John 3:16 is a difficult passage when it comes to the Issue of God’s love for mankind? If we insist that God means ‘all people’ when He says ‘the world’ in J 3:16, then what about the verses I posted? Either God’s word can not be broken, or there must be another explanation to the assertion that ‘world, means ‘the whole world’.
and just for the Record, I have no idea what Calvanism teaches- I only know what I’ve studied over the years, and the difficulties I’ve had with some passages, and seekign answers- I don’t really care what organization has answers, as long as I feel they are scripturally sound thriough prayer and study- I hesitate to even claim a denomination as I’ve foudn unsoundness in most of the denominations I’ve studied, but I’ve also foudn soundeness in some of what some of hte denominations have said as well- if however, they preach as their central tenants stuff that is clearly contradictory to fairly easily understood portions of God’s word, expecially concidering Salvation, I steer clear- however, that doesn’t mean that some denominations who might be in error have nothign of value to add regarding theological issues-
I have a somewhat strong leaning regarding predestination, however, I will NOT bet the farm on it one way or the other, as I don’t beleive it’s really an essential issue- is it important? Sure, but is it critical to the salvation message of Christ? Nope- As we don’t know who God may have chosen IF infact God does choose, we STILL NEED to be witness of God’s love to everyone we meet one way or another- The way I figure it is this- IF God wanted us to know in no uncertain terms, one way or the other, then He would have spelled it out VERY clearly so that there would have been no ucnertainties- Since He didn’t- and since it’s not real clear, subjects like predestination are ineteresting, but not really essential to the central message of the Word- and I’ll not live or die accordign to whether predestination is gospel truth or not- but that doesn’t mean I won’t have an opinion on it