Here's a baby picture, anyway, just because it's Friday:
Posted on 02/17/2011 7:35:48 AM PST by verdugo
I just hope we can all come together the next time the ‘sedevacantist’ guy starts another ‘catholic’ thread.
Here's a baby picture, anyway, just because it's Friday:
You are arguing in favor of a Protestant Pentecostal heresy (that was taught to some Catholics in the 1960's and spread to become what is called the Charismatic Movement) and against 1900+ years of Church teaching, and you call me Protestant? I think you've been using your "that's Protestant" on YOPIOS so long, that you know nothing else. Are you insane? Open your eyes!!!!!
You criticize Protestants for doing a 180 degree turn on contraceptives in the 1930's, when the Cathoic Ecumenists and Charismatics did the same thing in the 1960's WITH YOUR APPROVAL! You've either lost the faith or you've lost your marbles.
You are falling into the same mistake as the sedevacantes, a conundrum. Catholics do not even need step into debate on those two simplistic, false, conclusions. Sedevacantesism (he is not a pope because he teaches error) or Papalolotry (he can't teach error because he is the pope).
. If a pope is opposed to 1900 years of POPES on some opinion, then in that opinion he is separated himself from antiquity. AND so have any others that follow him against 1900 years of popes.
Vatican Council I: Pastor Aeternus
First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ
Chapter 4: On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff
6. For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.
ST. VINCENT OF LERINS (400-450 AD)CONFESSOR OF THE CHURCH
"What then should a Catholic do if some part of the Church were to separate itself from communion with the universal Faith? What other choice can he make but to prefer to the gangrenous and corrupted member the whole of the body that is sound. And if some new contagion were to try to poison no longer a small part of the Church, but all of the Church at the same time, then he will take the greatest care to attach himself to antiquity which, obviously, can no longer be seduced by any lying novelty." (Commonitorium)
...starts another ‘catholic’ thread.
...not this one!
Sorry, not an arguement....anytime the Lord appears to any in the scripture and they fell...they fell “FORWARD” not backward as most of these people do...again I say it’s a counterfeit....and like most counterfeits it “looks” like the real thing but there’s a difference to the discerning.
Some would do well looking up the word..”slain” “slaying” to see if they really want to identify this with the Holy Spirit. The Lord I serve would not associate this with His Spirit concerning believers.
If ALL the previous popes have condemned the activity, then the popes have called it a heresy. Nothing has changed, the activity has not changed, Ecumenism and Charismatic Movements are the same as they were, Prostetant Movements.
re: We aren’t talking about human sacrifice. Just some people speaking in tongues and listening to rock music at their churches.
Then I guess to you the Arian heresy and the separation of the Eastern Orthodox over the filioque was just splitting hairs.
We are talking about Catholics becoming Protestants, and wacko crazy sect Protestants at that,"speaking in tongues" YEAH, those people are INSANE! For the Catholics that take part, most are just dumb down feelings oriented types, mostly women, HOWEVER, the leaders and clergy have no excuse. It is not Catholic.
This thread has upset, fussing persons on it. It’s as bad as being in my house. “I want to be the Apatosaurus!” “You were the Apatosaurus last time!” “Well, you’re extinct!” “Cheater! Cheater!”
Sigh, even your children’s arguments are more sophisticated than mine.
Are you detecting the delicate hints of misogyny, Butterfly? I can smell it even over the hot dog scent. (It’s 74 degrees, and Ash is having Sunbeam Time.)
It’s because the current batch had the older ones as a formative influence, and the older ones studied logic and rhetoric. I’ll never forget Bill’s looking *down* at me - first time I’d noticed he was taller - and saying, “Your argument from superior force has a little problem ...”
I find it unlikely that every pope from St. Peter onwards has condemned an activity that began in the 20th century. The popes are infallible, true, but I don't think they can see the future.
Also, the Arian heresy and Eastern Orthodox didn't have rock and roll. In fact, as Tax-chick noted a few posts ago, the Eastern Orthodox are probably even more disinclined toward rock music than you are.
This does seem to be getting repetitive. And illogical.
This one has a particularly bizarre argument. Or a non-argument, as it were.
Nothing is new in the Church, one does not need to know "the future", the same erorrors just keep being repeated. All the popes from St. Peter on have condemned the practice of the clergy & faithful assisting in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics.
It's in scripture, AS INTERPRETED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, scroll up to my other posting and you'll see where I posted scripture (or look down this one and you'll see some more).
Subject: (Ecumenism Movement and) the Charismatic Movement, which is Catholics using a Heretical Protestant false worship, like worshipping idols, and also sometimes even worshipping with Protestants (see thread article)
Solemn Pronouncements from Dogmatic Counsels, and Papal Encyclicals:
Council of Carthage, 418
One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the church, whether clergy or layman; let him be excommunicated.
III Council of Constantinople, 680
If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or the meeting-houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.
Code of Canon Law, 1917
#1258 - 1. It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics.
Excerps from "Mortalium Animos", Encyclical of Pope Pius XI, On Religious Unity, January 6, 1928.
2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism andatheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.
3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.
4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be "one"[1]. And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another"[2]? All Christians, they add, should be as "one": for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a mostgrave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those schemes which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.
8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ.
9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you"[18]. For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith. 10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. Encyclical Quanta Cura-Syllabus of Errors Pope Pius IX
ERRORS Condemned
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851. (ERROR)
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846. (ERROR)
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc. (ERROR)
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849. (ERROR)
BIBLICAL REFERENCES: 14 Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God: as God saith: I will dwell in them and walk among them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore: Go out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: (2Cor 6)
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words. For because of these things cometh the anger of God upon the children of unbelief. 7 Be ye not therefore partakers with them. 8 For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness: but rather reprove them. 12 For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of. (Eph 5)
20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils. 21 You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord and of the table of devils. (1Cor 10)
1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error and doctrines of devils, (1Tim 4)
OTHER REFERENCES
As Catholics live among those who are of false religions, and often have the most intimate connections with them, they naturally and laudable contract a love and affection for them. This makes them at first unwillingly to think that their friends are out of the way of salvation, then they proceed to wish and hope that they may be saved, then they call into question that that is so. In this, they grab at every pretext to persuade themselves that their friends can be saved in their own religion. It has become the fashion to think and believe that an uncovenanted mercy is to be found in God for Jews, Mohamedans, and those of false religions. Fashion is a powerful persuasive against which even good people are not always immune. When a Catholic hears these liberal sentiments every day resounding in his ears, and anything that seems contrary to them, ridiculed and condemned. He eventually yields to the delusion. The real reason that Catholics adopt this loose way of thinking, is that they are ignorant of the grounds of their religion, they don't examine the matter thoroughly, and once they are infected by the spirit of the day, they become unwilling to examine any further. They even get angry if any zealous friend should attempt to undeceive them. Grasping at the false reasoning that favors this loose way of thinking, they refuse to open their mind to the truth.
- Orestes Brownson (1803-1876), Brownson's Quarterly Review ( American born, former New England Transcendentalist and colleague of Channing, Emerson, and Hawthorne. Published Brownson's Quarterly Review from his conversion to Catholicism in 1844, until within three years of his death.)
Hu's on first. Watt's on second. So who's on Third again? Not only that, but I am leaning toward Nestorianism and will be into deep glossolalia..
One would never fall forward if one could avoid it, due to glasses-breakage and other bad outcomes. And “resting in the Spirit,” as I prefer to phrase it, is generally to some extent under the control of the will.
Francisco is on the injured list - stitches up his forehead, as if he survived a battleaxe attack - but you can have Patrick, the pint-sized Greek heirarch, and Vlad the Usurper, armed with a baseball bat and a Confederate flag, and James, their Muscle. (Tom just left for camp, and Bill isn’t speaking to me for some reason. Maybe because I snickered at his hairstyle.)
Just have James clobber Pat if he starts reciting the Complete “Star Wars” Saga instead of the writings of the Fathers. And forgive his Greek accent: we’re Suthunuhs.
“Star Wars” reeks of Manicheanism, and I will have nothing but Arians on my space ship! (And the odd Anglican.)
Well, you will not be welcome if you attempt to land Arian heretics on the Zeus colony. Hellenists only!
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