Almighty God's Two Jewish Witnesses Are At Hand!

The Ignorant Fishermen,com ^ | 1/31/11 | DJP (I.F.)

[JohnnyM]

"true and faithful believers"

How do you define true and faithful believers? Will all who believe be raptured?

Now I believe there will be a rapture, but not all Christians will be raptured. Of the seven churches in Revelation, only one is promised not to go through the tribulation.

Only 5 of the 10 virgins meet the bride groom.

If all Christians will be raptured why then the warning from Jesus to watch and pray? Wouldn't those Christians who didnt watch and pray be raptured if all are raptured?

JM

[DManA]

the true and faithful believers will go through the punishment

True and faithful believers has endured horrendous agonies in the past 2000 years. They are called martyrs. God promises his grace will be sufficient for anything we must endure on Earth.

[nina0113]

It’s in the thread title.

[dangerdoc]

I wish the writing were more clear. I’ve read through the Bible cover to cover and the writings about the end times are not as cut and dried as many say.

Some of the scripture seems to deal directly with the tribulation of the early church. Some of it is purposefully obscur and some of the assumptions feel like they were pulled out of the air.

I was raised with pre-trib teaching. As I read and studied over the years, I have leaned a-trib. I pray that the truth isn’t post-trib.

[Red Badger]

The person who wrote the title is mistaken. They don’t have to be “Jewish”. The term “Jewish” wasn’t even used until the time of the Babylonian captivity. Strictly speaking, a Jew is a descendant of the Tribe of Judah. It eventually became inclusive of the Tribe of Benjamin and a scattering of Levites that remained in the Southern Kingdom, after the Assyrian defeat of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.
Enoch was not a “Jew”, but he walked with God, so God took him.........

[CynicalBear]

>>Now I believe there will be a rapture, but not all Christians will be raptured. Of the seven churches in Revelation, only one is promised not to go through the tribulation.<<

First of all I said “true and faithful” not just those who call themselves Christian. Second, let’s look at what was said to those churches.

Church 1.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Repent or they will be removed.

Church 2.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. [warning them to be faithful.]

Church 3.
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. [Again told to repent or else.]

Church 4.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [Telling them that there will even be people within churches that will be cast out with some in the church who remain “faithful” will be ok.]

Get the drift of what’s happening here? There will be some whole churches who will be cast out and there will be some within churches who will be and the last church, the church in Philadelphia, is the example of the true, faithful church and where, once again, we have the promise of not having to go through the tribulation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[JohnnyM]

"First of all I said “true and faithful” not just those who call themselves Christian."

Which is why I asked for a clarification of of true and faithful? Do you agree that there are Christians who have very little fruit or who are carnal?

The letters in Revelation were sent to churches, which means they were a body of believers. Some of these churches had started mixing with the world or losing their first love, but they were believers none-the-less or else the Holy Spirit would not have referred to them as Churches.

So lets forget the true and faithful for a second. Will ALL believers be raptured?

JM

[CynicalBear]

>> So lets forget the true and faithful for a second. Will ALL believers be raptured?<<

Forget about true and faithful? Are you kidding? Satan himself knows/believes that Jesus is the true Lord and Savior but has and is desperately trying to stop people from accepting Him as their only Lord and Savior.

Jesus wants total dedication the Him. He is the only “way”. No one goes to the Father but by Him, not through some saint or matriarch. No salvation just because one belongs to some organized denomination or group. Only a personal relationship with Jesus, trusting that He is our only source and hope, believing that He paid the only price needed for the forgiveness of our sins and through grace alone are we saved into eternal life with Him. Only those who hold to those truths and maintain that trust and belief will be counted worthy.

[r9etb]

Never before in the 6000-year history of man has occurred such great global flux and searing consciousness that doom awaits at the very doorstep.

Ooooooookay...... I suppose the Black Death was mere child's play compared to the tribulations of today....

[Zionist Conspirator]

Two Jewish witnesses? My money’s on Adam Sandler/Ben Stiller doing a comedy together.

Unless Ann Meara underwent a Halakhic conversion, Ben Stiller isn't Jewish.

[blasater1960]

According to Jesus, Elijah has already came in the form of John the baptist. Elijah is supposed to restore fathers to children and children to fathers. That didnt happen. Jesus said that he would set father against son and daughter against mother, just the opposite of the mission of Elijah. John the baptist denied he was Elijah. So does Elijah come twice or was Jesus wrong? And did John the baptist lie about who he was? And why does Jesus undo the work of Elijah?

[Red Badger]

Elijah is supposed to restore fathers to children and children to fathers.That didn't happen.

That may very well be the work of Elijah just before the End Times, as one of the two witnesses.

Jesus said that he would set father against son and daughter against mother, just the opposite of the mission of Elijah.

That did happen in the First Century Church.

John the baptist denied he was Elijah. So does Elijah come twice or was Jesus wrong? And did John the baptist lie about who he was? And why does Jesus undo the work of Elijah?

John the Baptist was also Jesus' cousin, yet he did not know if Jesus was the one prophesied as the Messiah, or the one to come before the Messiah to announce the coming. IOW, he was unaware that he himself was the one small voice in the wilderness. John the Baptist was the prophet Elijah reborn, but apparently he was unaware of his previous life........

[CynicalBear]

First of all you need to include the portions of scripture to back up your claims so we can read ourselves and put into context.

>>Elijah has already came in the form of John the baptist.<<

That would be reincarnation so I think you mis-interpreted the intent of the scripture but then again you didn’t include it so I don’t know what you are using.

>>Elijah is supposed to restore fathers to children and children to fathers.<<

Scripture to back up that comment.

[Red Badger]

Malachi 4:5, the previous verse:

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

The Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord has not yet come, and neither has Elijah come to do his work..............

[CynicalBear]

Ok, I found verses you may have been referencing.

>> Elijah is supposed to restore fathers to children and children to fathers. That didn’t happen.<<

You’re right that didn’t happen the first time Elijah was on the earth. It is to happen during the tribulation. The witnesses are witnessing to the Jews who had rejected Jesus as the Messiah. During the tribulation it’s the Jews who are going to turn to Jesus as their Messiah thus bringing fathers to children etc.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

>> Jesus said that he would set father against son and daughter against mother, just the opposite of the mission of Elijah.<<

That is to happen before the tribulation period. We can see that happening today. Many who were brought up in Christian homes are turning away.

>> According to Jesus, Elijah has already came in the form of John the baptist.<<

The Bible is quite clear that John the Baptist is given this designation because he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), not because he was Elijah in a literal sense. John the Baptist is the New Testament forerunner who points the way to the arrival of the Lord, just as Elijah filled that role in the Old Testament (and will again in the future – see Revelation 11).

[CynicalBear]

>> John the Baptist was the prophet Elijah reborn, but apparently he was unaware of his previous life........<<

No he wasn’t. See post 35.

[blasater1960]

Matthew 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.

Matthew 17:11-13 (New American Standard Bible) 11And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also (A)the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

So, Jesus clearly states that John the Baptist is Elijah. But John the baptist did not restore all things which is Malachi 4

But John the baptist denies he is Elijah even though he quotes scripture that is attributed to Elijah.

21They asked him, "What then? Are you (AM)Elijah?" And he said, "I am not " "Are you (AN)the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." John 1:22Then they said to him, "Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?" 23He said, "I am (AO)A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,' as Isaiah the prophet said."

And Red Badger he does know who Jesus is.

John 1:25They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor (AP)the Prophet?" 26John answered them saying, "(AQ)I baptize [e]in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27"It is (AR)He who comes after me, the (AS)thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." 28These things took place in Bethany (AT)beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, (AU)the Lamb of God who (AV)takes away the sin of the world!

7As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, "What did you go out into (I)the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8"But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings' palaces! 9"But what did you go out to see? (J)A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet. 10"This is the one about whom it is written, '(K)BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.' 11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12"(L)From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. 13"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is (M)Elijah who was to come.

So, Jesus says JTB is Elijah. JTB says he isnt Elijah. JTB does not restore the hearts fathers to their children. Jesus says he will do just the opposite. So either Jesus is wrong or John the baptist is wrong and since all things were not restored...a failed prophecy.

[CynicalBear]

Do you believe in reincarnation? Do you think Jesus did? If not, then you have to realize that your interpretation needs adjusting. Did you see my post 35?

[blasater1960]

The Bible is quite clear that John the Baptist is given this designation because he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), not because he was Elijah in a literal sense. John the Baptist is the New Testament forerunner who points the way to the arrival of the Lord, just as Elijah filled that role in the Old Testament

I have heard that explanation before but it cant be true. Jesus said:

"14"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. And....11And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came....the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Jesus makes it plain. JTB was Elijah who was to come. Not the "spirit of Elijah"....He also doesnt say, JTB is the spirit and the "real" Elijah will return in the future.

Never in Tanakh (OT) does the bible talk about Elijah showing up more than once. The NT is in error.

[CynicalBear]

The angel clearly explains in Luke 1:17 that it’s “in the spirit and power of Elias”. Why would you discount that?

Luke 117And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Also, John the Baptist himself declares he is not Elijah.

john 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

I would suggest you need to accept the fact that Jesus meant “in the spirit and power”.

The NT is NOT in error. If you start believing that the entire scripture to you will be suspect.