In Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Clement of Alexandria"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Cyprian of Carthage
There are others but this should be sufficient for your purposes.
No. There is NO command to the Church to pray to departed saints. There is no encouragement to pray to departed saints. There is no example of praying to departed saints.
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
This poor Bible work is a result of choosing a doctrine and then attempting to find scriptural support.
Lol! Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? People ask people to "pray for me" all the time. Why not ask the Virgin Mary or any other saint to "pray for you?" Just because they are no longer "of this world" does not mean they don't "talk" to God. The saints in heaven are not "separated" by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39) as we are all one Body in Christ (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12) and Christ "abolished death" (2 Timothy 1:10 ). Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently in His Presence. The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should "carry more weight" so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you. In fact, Christ's first public miracle was performed upon the "intercession" of His own mother (John 2:2-11).
NYer, you’re a saint. And one day I hope you are a Saint. You have such a wonderfully Christian tilting-at-windmills, casting-pearls-before-swine sticktoittiveness. Yeah, I know it’s not a word, but in your case it should be.
God bless you. And may he keep you as ever patient as you always seem to be.
NYer,
Thanks for your response. Unfortunately, none of your historical references are from the 1st century. None of your passages were written to the Church.
... as to your comments
“Why not ask the Virgin Mary or any other saint to “pray for you?”
Because you do not have any idea that they hear you. Does the Virgin Mary ask you to pray for her? Do the other departed saints ask you to pray for them? Lol. Asking does
not mean you are heard, whereas CHRIST CAN hear and answer.
Mary or other departed believers, who knows?
“Just because they are no longer “of this world” does not mean they don’t “talk” to God.”
Yes, but this begs the question. The issue isn’t whether they
talk to God. It is whether they hear us when we “talk to them”.
“The saints in heaven are not “separated” by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39)”
This passage says nothing can separate us from the Love of God. It doesn’t say what you imply.
“Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can.”
And we are back to substituting praying directly to Christ, as we should and back to not even knowing departed saints can hear us, if we don’t desire to talk to Christ.
“In fact, better, as they are presently in His Presence. “
They are in His presence, but have no more “pull” with Him than any other believer in Christ - present with Him or no.
“The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should “carry more weight” so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you.”
No, according to the Bible, Christians are saints. All saints. Christ’s mom has no more “weight” than another believer in Christ.
“In fact, Christ’s first public miracle was performed upon the “intercession” of His own mother (John 2:2-11).”
Sure, Mary asked Him. This does not mean He will always agree with her.
All I asked for was a first century historical reference that would demonstrate that praying for saints was part of Apostolic teaching or the practice of the Church. As this point in searching, I haven’t found one.
Since the NT contains specific instructions in all that it
takes for operation of the Church and godliness, why is
there no command, instruction or example of praying to a
departed saint? Indeed.
Best,
ampu