Posted on 01/29/2011 7:06:07 PM PST by Benchim
Salvation has three legs supporting the entire doctrine. Leg 1: The first Leg on the Stool is Belief in Christ. Belief means to steadfastly trust in the fact-- that Jesus is the Son of God. The Greek word is pistevo. "For God so greatly loved the world that He gave up His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
You will find nothing in the definition requiring "obedience" or "sinless" conduct . This is the foundation of antinomianism. John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
LEG 2: The second leg is that Christ died and was resurrected to atone for your sins. This in imputed righteousness. Otherwise Christs suffering meant nothing. LEG 3: The third leg which stands the stool is Savlation is a gift- by the grace of God and not as a result of anything you do i.e. "works" except your belief in Christ as the son of God . Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Reading some message board on the internet is no *proof* of anything.
How do you know every single "Fundamentalist" you know uses the Pill or IUD's?
Did every single one you know tell you that they do?
Or did you ask them?
Of the ones who haven't, how would you know what they do at home? You certainly can't live with each and everyone 24/7 to watch their every move.
Argue, rant, rave, whine to your hearts content, Adam and Eve lost their salvation.
it’s not with the loss of salvation, otherwise, we wouldn’t still be considered sons. He uses whatever means is necessary, but God does not hold us under the Law anymore so that *If you do thus, this will happen to you*.
God disciplines His own....
Hebrews 12:3-11
Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Illness and early death are one way.
1 Corinthians 11:27-32
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
You responded>> But Scripture simply doesn't say this.<<
It most certainly does. I gave you a verse that showed it. James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
What was imputed unto him for righteousness? His belief. “Abraham believed God, and it (the belief) was imputed unto him for righteousness. I don’t know how it could be made more clear.
Apples and Oranges. You are confusing categories.
Prior to the fall Adam and Eve did not require salvation, they had not yet fallen. They were on probation and they sinned. At that point they needed salvation. They didn't follow one simple law. We can't follow any of them.
Amen and Amen
Once again pointing out with scripture the folly of works salvation.
Genesis 3:14–15 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And nyou shall eat dust All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; (Christ insertion mine) He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
This scripture is called the "proto-evangelium "
It is the first promise of a Savior in the Bible..
This is a demonstration of the Grace and mercy of God after the sinful rebellion of man ..that promise was to Adam and Eve and to all their offspring
Amen ...still working on basics here :)
They weren't saved yet as they hadn't sinned, so there was no salvation to *lose*.
Exactly ...
Some posts Just show some people have a large degree of biblical ignorance ..:(
**Really, you see in my Bible**
And just which “Bible” is that?
**they left when they were saved**
In the Christian Bible they had not yet fallen, so there was no one to save. They were on probation. Once they fell, we all fell in line right behind them.
**Jesus came a long time AFTER they lost their salvation.**
So? What’s your point? All of the O.T. Saints were “saved” by faith in Christ, just like we are. That is also in the Christian Bible.
That simple statement defines a Christian. Your Acceptance of Jesus is your individual salvation and no more need be said.
Others may believe that something is required of them to attain what Christians attain from faith and grace alone.
Taoism - Poop happens.
Hinduism - This poop happened before.
Buddhism - If poop happens, it isn't really poop.
Zen - What is the source of poop happening?
Islam - If poop happens, it is the will of Allah.
Jehovah's Witness - Knock, knock, " Poop happens."
Atheism - There is no poop.
Agnosticism - I don't know whether poop happens
Protestantism - Poop won't happen if I work harder.
Catholicism - If poop happens, I deserve it.
Judaism - Why does poop always happen to us?
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1577
http://www.hisholychurch.net/ekklesia.php
http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0004.htm
I searched and could not find a single site that offers the translation “all believers” for the Greek word ekklesia.
But, all the different and competing translations are moot.
The men and women who built up the early church were Jewish people used to meeting in a synagogue. It was only natural that as the assembly of believers grew they would gravitate towards a common place and then to eventually building a specific place for worship.
After the transfiguration, Peter immediately wants to erect three tents, one each for Jesus, Moses and Elijah. Places for them to dwell, a place such where God dwelt.
In Acts Chapter 6 we see the twelve appoint men to oversee the affairs of the church and once the men are chosen, the Apostles pray over them and lay hands upon them and the community is satisfied with this outcome.
Where some might see the supplanting of the word church in place of ekklesia as a sinister power grab, I see it as a completely predictable action in light of the fact that those who come to church are indeed those who believe. Why else would they come?
As far as my own church, I am a grateful, happy and peaceful Catholic who goes to church to worship God, pray and to receive Him in the Eucharist.
So, if one produces no fruit and continues to lead a totally debauched and sinful life, does that mean he was not saved?
Even if he uttered the sinners’ prayer?
.” In other words, God saved us not only to be with Him in heaven - but to get busy doing the works He has for us to do.
if that person never shows any evidence by their actions, deeds, works that they have truely allowed Jesus to be Lord of their lives - then that person’s faith is worthless.
Sounds like what the Catholic Church teaches.
Robert Sungenis addresses this quite clearly in his "Not by Faith Alone" book. A very good read, but it is about 774 pages long.
Let me ask a simple question, yes or no - Do works play any role whatsoever in the Salvation plan of Christ for us?
Aren’t works a part of salvation?
If one is saved, doesn’t one then produce fruit?
How does one produce fruit without works?
.” In other words, God saved us not only to be with Him in heaven - but to get busy doing the works He has for us to do.
From an earlier post.
re: So you are now saying that “works” are necessary
I am? Where did I do that?
I have always understood that passage merely to mean that since Jesus had returned to Heaven, it was up to the Apostles to continue spreading the word about Him.
It was not that Jesus’ affliction was not enough, obviously it was those afflictions which save us, but that it was up to them to spread that good news. That they suffered afflictions for that is absolutely true.
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