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To: Cronos; Jvette; Mr Rogers; RegulatorCountry; metmom; Gamecock; caww
Chrysostom attached considerable imporance to the COMMUNAL reading and HEARING of Scripture on the part of the laity. This is NOT the same as having your own copy to peruse.

Here and in your other responses you contend that such exhortations were only for hearing the Scriptures, presumably in church, which, if that were the case, Rome was much negligent in providing a real literacy in by way of, while it also hindered it to varying degrees, in contrast to her later position.

However, your attempt to construe Chrysostom and Jerome to fit your position that exhortations were only for hearing the Scriptures is surprising, as some of your fellow apologists* invoke them for support of personal reading, as do higher officials.

For, tell me, who of you that stand here, if he were required, could repeat one Psalm, or any other portion of the divine Scriptures? There is not one.

And it is not this only that is the grievous thing, but that while you have become so backward with respect to things spiritual, yet in regard of what belongs to Satan you are more vehement than fire. Thus should any one be minded to ask of you songs of devils and impure effeminate melodies, he will find many that know these perfectly, and repeat them with much pleasure.

10. But what is the answer to these charges? "I am not," you will say, "one of the monks, but I have both a wife and children, and the care of a household." Why, this is what has ruined all, your supposing that the reading of the divine Scriptures appertains to those only, when you need it much more than they. For they that dwell in the world, and each day receive wounds, these have most need of medicines. So that it is far worse than not reading, to account the thing even "superfluous:" for these are the words of diabolical invention. Hear ye not Paul saying, "that all these things are written for our admonition"? 1 Corinthians 10:11

And you, if you had to take up a Gospel, would not choose to do so with hands unwashed; but the things that are laid up within it, do you not think to be highly necessary? It is because of this, that all things are turned upside down.

For if you would learn how great is the profit of the Scriptures, examine yourself, what you become by hearing Psalms, and what by listening to a song of Satan; and how you are disposed when staying in a Church, and how when sitting in a theatre; and you will see that great is the difference between this soul and that, although both be one

Let it dwell in you,” he saith, “richly,” not simply dwell, but with great abundance. Hearken ye, as many as are worldly, and have the charge of wife and children; how to you too he commits especially the reading of the Scriptures and that not to be done lightly, nor in any sort of way, but with much earnestness...

Tarry not, I entreat, for another to teach thee; thou hast the oracles of God. No man teacheth thee as they; for he indeed oft grudgeth much for vainglory’s sake and envy. Hearken, I entreat you, all ye that are careful for this life, and 301procure books that will be medicines for the soul. If ye will not any other, yet get you at least the New Testament, the Apostolic Epistles, the Acts, the Gospels, for your constant teachers...

This is the cause of all evils, the not knowing the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe? - Homily IX. Colossians iii. 16, 17

If thus we regulate ourselves, and attentively study the Scriptures, in most things we shall derive instruction from them. And thus shall be able to please God, and to pass through the whole of the present life virtuously, and to attain those blessings which are promised to those that love Him, of which God grant that we may all be counted worthy, through the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom, together with the Holy Ghost, be unto the Father, glory, power, and honor, now, and ever, through all ages. Amen.

Jerome - "strenuous Catholic, learned in the Scriptures,"[2] "teacher of Catholics,"[3] "model of virtue, world's teacher"[4] - has by his earnest and illuminative defense of Catholic doctrine on Holy Scripture left us most precious instructions. These we propose to set before you and so promote among the children of the Church, and especially among the clergy, assiduous and reverent study of the Bible http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_15091920_spiritus-paraclitus_en.html

Pius X most heartily commended the society of St. Jerome, which strives to promote among the faithful -- and to facilitate with all its power -- the truly praiseworthy custom of reading and meditating on the holy Gospels; he exhorted them to persevere in the enterprise they had begun, proclaiming it "a most useful undertaking, as well as most suited to the times," seeing that it helps in no small way "to dissipate the idea that the Church is opposed to or in any way impedes the reading of the Scriptures in the vernacular."[20] [Letter to the Most Eminent Cardinal Casetta Oui piam, Jan. 21, 1907; Pii X Acta IV, pp. 23-25.]

And Benedict XV, on the occasion of the fifteenth centenary of the death of St. Jerome, the greatest Doctor of the Sacred Scriptures, after having most solemnly inculcated the precepts and examples of the same Doctor, as well as the principles and rules laid down by Leo XIII and by himself, and having recommended other things highly opportune and never to be forgotten in this connection, exhorted "all the children of the Church, especially clerics, to reverence the Holy Scripture, to read it piously and meditate it constantly"; he reminded them "that in these pages is to be sought that food, by which the spiritual life is nourished unto perfection," and "that the chief use of Scripture pertains to the holy and fruitful exercise of the ministry of preaching"; he likewise once again expressed his warm approval of the work of the society called after St. Jerome himself, by means of which the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles are being so widely diffused, "that there is no Christian family any more without them and that all are accustomed to read and meditate them daily."[21] [Encyclical Letter Spiritus Paraclitus] — http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12DIVIN.HTM

Concurring,

"Those who do understand, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and many of the righteous as the stars for ever and ever." Daniel 12:3 Thus, then, I have shown it to be, if any one read the Scriptures. For thus it was that the Lord discoursed with the disciples after His resurrection from the dead, proving to them from the Scriptures themselves "that Christ must suffer, and enter into His glory, and that remission of sins should be preached in His name throughout all the world." And the disciple will be perfected, and [rendered] like the householder, "who brings forth from his treasure things new and old." — http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103426.htm

While the Scriptures certain were more rare, and more treasured, God will provide those with them who seek Him with their whole heart, and it is not simply a certain few that He inspires by texts as " These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11) While also establishing the need for teachers.

More: http://www.saintjonah.org/chrysostom_scripture.htm On reliance On BIBLE READING BY THE LAITY, RESTRICTIONS ON (Schaff)

*http://www.faithofthefathersapologetics.blogspot.com http://www.defendingthebride.com/bb/



409 posted on 01/24/2011 9:12:47 AM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: daniel1212
Chrysostom attached considerable imporance to the COMMUNAL reading and HEARING of Scripture on the part of the laity. This is NOT the same as having your own copy to peruse.

This is apparent in his Hom. ii in Matt where he said
For if you would learn how great is the profit of the Scriptures, examine yourself, what you become by hearing psalms

Yes, for a word from the divine Scriptures, made to sound in the ear, does more than fire soften the hardened soul, and renders it fit for all good things

Let us not therefore despise the hearing of the divine Scriptures.
Hence the statement that you copied from the "Schaff-Herzog" encyclopedia Chrysostom attached considerable importance to the reading of Scripture on the part of the laity is incorrect self-interpretation of John Chrysostom's works by whoever wrote the 'Schaff-Herzog' encyclopedia
412 posted on 01/24/2011 1:56:41 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: daniel1212
Taking Homily 2 on Matthew, one reads:
For, tell me, who of you that stand here, if he were required, could repeat one Psalm, or any other portion of the divine Scriptures? --> memorisation noted here, which can denote communal or/and private reading.

This is the same with the rest of the quotes from Chrysostom -- it was communal reading indicating, not telling everyone to grab a Bible and read it at whome -- quite an impossibility in a low-literacy world

Ditto for the Homily XX on Ephesians.

Read my post above on low literacy in the world

For more literacy in the Roman world
Looking also at Roman Egypt with its intense official demand for documentation, A.E. Hanson ("Ancient illiteracy") uses the evidence of papyri, incuding a selection published here for the first time, to examine how large numbers of illiterate and semi-literate people functioned in a world that required writing. What emerges from her analysis is the importance of social networks in enabling Egypt's peasant and sub-elite population to participate in a stratified, bilingual society. While the focus of these two final essays is similar, there are signal and intriguing differences between them. To Hopkins, the levels of literacy Harris believes were reached in the ancient world are remarkably high in world history and need explaining. Thus, citing the roster of an auxiliary unit of camel troops from Egypt, one-third of whose members signed their names, Hopkins comments positively that fully one-third of these troopers were literate. But Hanson, referring to the same set of signatures, emphasizes that fully two-thirds were illiterate.
Or, In Ehrman's book titled Misquoting Jesus it is claimed that
"...at the very best of times and places--for example, Athens at the height of the classical period in the fifth century B.C.E--literacy rates were rarely higher than 10-15 percent of the population" (Page 37)
While, I personally doubt such a low figure for the Roman Empire, I would agree that if one takes into consideration that one-third to one-half the population were slaves, and women were mostly not educated, then a figure of 25% literate is believable, perhaps even 40% in the Roman World at the time of Christ, however, it was still a vastly illerate society, so stating that one must READ the scripture is definitely incorrect. Studying the scripture, just like the ancient Jews did by recitation or hearing it read aloud is far more likely
413 posted on 01/24/2011 2:14:54 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: daniel1212
ditto for Jerome's promote among the children of the Church, and especially among the clergy, assiduous and reverent study of the Bible --> in Jerome's day, this was reading out aloud as relevant study of the Bible. The excerpt that you copied from the Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia on second reading even says that the OT was commonly READ -- that, in an ORAL SOCIETY would mean read out aloud.

There is a fundamental shift even in the meanings of words between a purely oral society and one like from the 1700s onwards where books were freely available
414 posted on 01/24/2011 2:18:12 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: daniel1212

EXCELLENT.

THANKS.


418 posted on 01/24/2011 5:10:40 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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