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To: RegulatorCountry; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; ...
"Well, yes. This does not make us mindless automatons, is the point I've attempted to put across to you. Foreknowledge does not equate with control."

To clarify...absolute foreknowledge and predestination do not equal making us "mindless automatons" or puppets. Puppets & automatons do not have minds. We can see, think, act, behave, choose, all being managed by God Himself. We get to ride along watching and behaving and thinking about this maginificent control. Even folks like Pharaoh are managed into their evil. Recall, God said He would harden Pharaoh SO THAT he would deny Moses the opportunity to leave...not becuase he denied Moses. God caused him to decide this way.

The Scripture tells us that this kind of amazing management is occurring all the time (if you need more examples, let me know) It is a part of the genius of God. There is no analogical counterpart. I cannot say, "It is like such and such..." There is simply no other situation in existence to liken it to. Paul writes that God hardens whom He will and (notice, not "allows to choose Him", but) has mercy on whom He wills. So then, it does not depend upon the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God. And, He manages each detail into existence, precisely at the time and in the way He needs it to behave, think, act, perform such that He really is God of His universe.

You may wish to argue (along with those Paul expected to argue with him in Rom. 9), that this is simply not fair. That may be...in your thinking. But, it does not, according to Paul change the situation as it exists in reality. God is both Just and the Potter (and what a beautiful Potter He is). We are the mud. He molds, shapes, moves every dent, bulge, crack in the pot. We are almost, but not quite, like the inanimate crockery. The image of pottery is simply to emphasize the distance between us and our God. The true distance is even greater.

So, the thought of Him taking an interest in us, to reach down, to rescue us using the blood of His precious Son, a member of the Triune Godhead, should be both astonishing and humbling. But, sometimes we rasise up and demand a say in the whole matter. He, fortunately, does not grant that silliness, although He manages the silliness into us.

So, with all due respect, your remark about "Foreknowledge does not equate with control." is mistaken. While the concepts of foreknowledge, foreordination, predestination are not identical, they are, as I mentioned, intimately associated. They are deeply reliant upon each other as characteristics described by the Scriptures of a God Who is both Transcendent and Sovereign. And, prophecy is simply an expression of the interaction of foreordination being predestined and then spoken of by foreknowledge.

96 posted on 01/22/2011 9:11:13 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; RegulatorCountry; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; ...
So, the thought of Him taking an interest in us, to reach down, to rescue us using the blood of His precious Son, a member of the Triune Godhead, should be both astonishing and humbling.

We've drifted off to predestination vs foreknowledge, but one thing occurs to me if the sacrifice at Calvary was for all men then the Cross is insufficient to save us. We would have to bring something to our judgment.

98 posted on 01/22/2011 9:19:20 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Dutchboy88

Well said.

The issue here is Pelagians don’t want to allow God to be God. We are, after all, good enough, noble enough to choose Jesus without God’s intervention. < sarc>

We were created in God’s image, and Pelagians have been returning the favor ever since.


109 posted on 01/22/2011 9:55:26 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: Dutchboy88; RegulatorCountry; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; ...
While the concepts of foreknowledge, foreordination, predestination are not identical...

Right on. In fact, the term "foreknowledge" is has taken on a different theological meaning over the last 150 years then what it once meant. Foreknowledge in the strict biblical sense was always viewed as the knowledge of God. So if God "foreknew" something it was that God planned it, not that He had knowledge of what was about to happen. Thus Paul writes:

Foreknew is part of God's plan. Another illustation of this is in Romans 11 where Paul states:

To apply the term "foreknew" as God knew about these events would make this passage utterly senseless. It would say God has not rejected His people (Israel) whom He knew would choose Him. Given the recorded history of Israel we know this is not the meaning of the term "foreknew". Rather foreknew means that it was according to the plan of God.
148 posted on 01/22/2011 4:50:22 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: Dutchboy88
You may wish to argue (along with those Paul expected to argue with him in Rom. 9), that this is simply not fair.

Great post. I remain surprised at how many times the "it's not fair, God has no right to do that" argument is made. Always makes me chuckle. :)

172 posted on 01/24/2011 6:57:57 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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