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To: Cronos; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom; RnMomof7; blue-duncan; Gamecock; TSgt; ...
Re: your comments on the Rapture, etc.

Thankfully, none of the beliefs you listed involves a person's salvation.

Men are free to read the Bible and believe a variety of eschatalogical perspectives. It makes for interesting dialogue between Christians.

But eschatalogy does not determine whether or not a man will be saved and go to heaven (much to the disappointment of many Roman Catholic apologists who seek to divide the body of Christ rather than edify it.)

Far more serious to a man's eternal well-being are the papist teachings of praying to Mary as a "co-redeemer" and believing its priests are "another Christ." Those foul errors are total idolatry. Nothing else. And those given eyes to see know this and flee from it.

Likewise, it shames the cross of Christ to believe His one-time, perfect, completed sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save His sheep. It reveals a real lack of faith in Christ and God's promises.

And to believe fallible old men and their traditions are the equal if not superior to the word of God is blasphemy for it denies God's own instruction and Christ's teaching.

The list goes on and on. Rome's bloody history reveals its true intent - domination over all men. That is not the intent of Protestant churches who know that only God gives ears to hear and that real liberty is only achieved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And so we preach the Gospel to all men. We don't desire a return to the Inquisition, as several Roman Catholics have called for on this forum.

Please note that the excerpts from the OPC website you quote are written by one man; not a magisterium. A particular perspective on the end times is not a requirement for salvation. If you want to learn what Presbyterians believe, read the WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH or the HEIDELBERG CATECHISM.

But here's the part that must really unglue the Roman Catholic apologist who seeks to stir up division as if all disagreements equaled the unparalleled idolatry of Rome...

Those two confessions are denominational distinctives. IMO they are Scriptural and bring the believer into a right alignment with God's word.

Other true Christians are free to differ about a lot of what is written there, according to their God-given conscience. As has been said many times, most of us Protestants could sit in a pew of most Protestant churches and gratefully join with the congregation in worshiping the God of our merciful salvation with gratitude and joy.

I, personally, could not say that about a Roman Catholic mass. I am repelled by the alter which is turned away from the congregation. I am put off by the glitz and gold and fluttering cherubs which seek to take my mind off the risen Christ. I decry the lack of a sound sermon based on the word of God alone, which is the very reason we meet in church in the first place. And most of all, I cannot sit and watch men attempt to perform pagan alchemy on the Lord's Supper. It's all I can do not to rise up, like Cromwell, and knock the table over (which, in heels, would definitely end up with me in a cast.) Who needs the aggravation?

Therefore, without these glaring, anti-Scriptural insults to the church of Christ on earth, it's not so difficult for most Protestants, knowing full well that only God knows the heart, to look beyond the various distinctions in most Protestant churches to discern whether or not a man has true faith in Jesus Christ ALONE as revealed by the fruits of the Holy Spirit in his life. If a man kneels to the stock of a tree, prays to images of dead men, considers a "co-redeemer" as intrinsic to their salvation, believes they are led by "another Christ," and has no real confidence in Christ's finished work on the cross, then we are not foolish to view that attitude with skepticism and disdain.

OTOH, if a man displays a heartfelt belief in Jesus Christ as his ONLY Savior, King, Redeemer and God, then Christ's particular, transforming directive has been fulfilled...

"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36

The rest of the Christian religion will be accrued according to that person's sanctification, a long and steady walk towards Paradise, God willing.

And finally, one of the greatest errors of the church in Rome is that it literally denies the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's sheep. Instead Rome says the Holy Spirit works on the church, which then in turn works on its members. By arrogantly inserting itself between God and men, Rome effectively denies the personal, individual work of the Holy Spirit within us.

This error was one of the hallmarks of the Reformation - Rome cannot usurp the role of the Holy Spirit, try as it might.

"Faith is a steady and certain knowledge of the Divine benevolence towards us, which, being founded on the truth of the gratuitous promise in Christ, is both revealed to our minds and confirmed to our hearts, by the Holy Spirit." - John Calvin, Inst. III.ii.7

And since I'm partial to Calvin's perspective, let me conclude this effort with this from him...

"Rome's whole doctrine contains nothing else than big words and bombast, because it is inconsistent with the majesty of Scripture, the efficacy of the Spirit, the gravity of the prophets, and the sincerity of the apostles. It is an absolute profanation of real theology." - Calvin, Past. Epp. 174

2,302 posted on 01/31/2011 11:45:06 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom
Yes, this is what the Ortho Presbyterian C thinks of non-Calvinists:
OPC attacks. This is from the OPC Q&A site
It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.

In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. ....

Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost.

The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.
This states clearly that the OPC wishes to believe that the sending of the Holy Spirit is UNREPEATABLE
Some more OPC attacks on those who believe in the Rapture too
I think that it is wrong to hold (with the Premillennialists) that, from chapter 4:1 on, Revelation is all future.
And the OPC says this about those who deny the non-scriptural double-predestination, God pre-damns people idea of the followers of Calvin. Hence they condemn followers of Christ like Methodists/Pentecostals etc. here is a quote from their site
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.
So, Dr. Eck, as an OPCer, do you believe that
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Are Arminian preachers heretics?

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy?


Finally, since this thread is about the Rapture, here's what the OPC thinks about it and non-Calvinists

taken from the OPC's website where it attacks those who believe in the Rapture too
Question: Do you believe the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture? Will the believers in Christ be taken out of this world while the unbelievers are "left behind" to endure the final tribulations before the last day of this world? And will those unbelievers "left behind" have a last chance to repent?
==============================================

Answer:

The answer is "No" to all questions...

2,308 posted on 01/31/2011 12:17:27 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom
So, Dr. Eck, as an OPCer, do you believe that
  1. the beliefs of Methodists/Pentecostlas etc. denying the unscriptural Calvinist philosophy of double-predestination is indeed a heresy,....
  2. That the Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work only on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....
  3. That Arminian preachers (Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals etc.) heretics?
because these are all OPC beliefs given at the opc website

2,310 posted on 01/31/2011 12:22:59 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; Gamecock
And, the Westminster Confession of Faith does NOT support your false teachings of double-predestination

And regarding the Westminister Confession of Faith, in the next chapter, XVIII, he points out " this assurance may, in due time, be revived" viz may be revived not a complete assurance.

In chapter IX he wrote
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7] IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only
andChapter XV: Of Repentence unto Life
I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,[1] the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the Gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.[2]

II. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God,[3] purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments.[4]

III. Although repentance is not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,[5] which is the act of God's free grace in Christ,[6] yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.[7]

IV. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation;[8] so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.[9]

V. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.[10]

VI. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof;[11] upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;[12] so he that scandelizeth his brother, or the Church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended;[13] who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him
In fact, in Chapter XVI : Of Good Works he writes
. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith:[3] and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,[4] strengthen their assurance,[5] edify their brethren,[6] adorn the profession of the Gospel,[7] stop the mouths of the adversaries,[8] and glorify God,[9] whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,[10] that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.<[
"strenghten their assurance"? No double predestination in this, sorry.
2,312 posted on 01/31/2011 12:28:43 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Amen!

Outta the park and down the road...


2,327 posted on 01/31/2011 2:22:59 PM PST by editor-surveyor (NOBAMA - 2012)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Rome's whole doctrine contains nothing else than big words and bombast, because it is inconsistent with the majesty of Scripture, the efficacy of the Spirit, the gravity of the prophets, and the sincerity of the apostles. It is an absolute profanation of real theology." - Calvin, Past. Epp. 174

Now I see why Calvin is/has been constantly trashed here! LOL! He sure hits it right out of the ball park on that one! It wasn't until I was out of the RCC and then reading/learning/meditating on God's Word - did I see how deep and dark the RCC is. Then learning of it's history, popes, etc. - what a hell hole.
2,329 posted on 01/31/2011 3:17:38 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks much for the ping Dr.E
:)

We only have one Holy Father , our Abba is in heaven.
Christ’s vicar (representative) on earth doesn’t sit on an early chair in Vatican City , Christ’s vicar is the Holy Spirit.


2,332 posted on 01/31/2011 4:13:37 PM PST by Lera
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!
2,364 posted on 01/31/2011 8:03:36 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
one of the greatest errors of the church in Rome is that it literally denies the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's sheep. Instead Rome says the Holy Spirit works on the church, which then in turn works on its members. By arrogantly inserting itself between God and men, Rome effectively denies the personal, individual work of the Holy Spirit within us.

That is what I am seeing as well, though it's often framed in many different ways and from as many differing resources..the bottom line is they all same the same thing and looks like this is where they stood.. and remain even to this day.

2,370 posted on 01/31/2011 8:16:22 PM PST by caww
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