Posted on 01/10/2011 10:41:33 AM PST by NYer
lol. So many of these "conversion" stories are made up by Jesuit seminarians sitting in their dorm rooms with nothing better to do than pad the internet with more RC PR.
It gets old real fast.
In truth, the legal RC population in the U.S. is fast declining, and is only propped up by the waves of illegal immigrants. (Thus the RC vote for Obama and amnesty.)
Protestants have always out-numbered Roman Catholics in this country. Now RCs have been eclipsed by just those Protestants who call themselves "Evangelicals."
Yes, it was in 17th century vernacular. You can use it today but that would mean that when you beg the tax-collector to lower your taxes you will be "praying" to him/her? When a child pleads for his Mom not to spank him/ her that would be "praying to her? Uh...yeah, right. I think we both know that is not today's sense of the word.
Don't attempt to communicate to those beyond the grave. It's spiritualism. The only one worthy of our prayers today is God.
Don’t attempt to communicate to those beyond the grave. It’s spiritualism. The only one worthy of our prayers today is God.
Don’t be silly. Spiritualism refers to people who attempt to communicate with dead spirits via mediums and seances. The Ave Maria has nothing at all in common with such silliness, and you know it.
Yes, it was in 17th century vernacular. You can use it today but that would mean that when you beg the tax-collector to lower your taxes you will be “praying” to him/her? When a child pleads for his Mom not to spank him/ her that would be “praying to her? Uh...yeah, right. I think we both know that is not today’s sense of the word.
The word 'pray' has shifted in usage but not in meaning, and this has not even been complete. While it is no longer common to say "Please, I pray you, don't do that," one can still here "Pray tell..." which is a continuation of the older usage. But, in no case does 'pray' mean more than implore or plead. People just don't usually use it when not speaking of a religious or spiritual act rather than a direct physical one. In this way only has the usage developed, though again, not the meaning.
Most importantly, and completely in opposition to your claims, the word "pray" has never meant "worship." Only those who have refused to give God proper worship in the Eucharistic sacrifice have taken to believing that everything else associated with a life of faith, i.e. singing, praying and preaching, are in fact “worship.” When you exclude from your life those things which constitute true worship of God, you have to elevate what remains to the status of that which you rejected. Your position results not from our actually worshiping saints, by prayer or anything else, but rather from your refusal to continue in giving true worship to God himself.
Mediums and seances aren't necessary; people attempt to communicate with the dead all the time without an intermediary.
Your position results not from our actually worshiping saints, by prayer or anything else, but rather from your refusal to continue in giving true worship to God himself.
Nonsense.
Mediums and seances aren't necessary; people attempt to communicate with the dead all the time without an intermediary.
Then that wouldn't be spiritualism. Spiritualism is, by definition, the belief that the dead speak to the living by means of a medium or a clairvoyant of some sort and/or through a seance. You say that praying to the saints is spiritualism, but that is not so.
Nonsense.
Of course it isn't nonsense. Prayer is only worship if it is accompanied by actions or words which are themselves matters of worship. The reason people think things like prayer are worship is because they, first, have ceased to actually carry out definitive acts of worship, and secondly, they have formed an inadequate and unchristian understanding of life after death. The former I have discussed, and the latter is reflected in thinking God is not the God of the living. Some people have a problem understanding that being a Christian doesn't stop with physical death. Most Protestants have prayer chains and circles and ask one another for prayer all the time, and they never think of it as mediation or intercession which infringes on what our Lord does. But, if that person passes on to be with the Lord they insist that one can no longer ask them for intercession, and if they did then it is somehow idolatrous and infringes on what is due only to Christ. Silly. Christians pray for one another, and ask each other to, and physical death is nothing at all to that. Not for a Christian.
Not so, even though you seem to think repitition makes it so.
Oftentimes a person takes it on himself/herself to communicate with the dead. An intermediary in not necessary for spiritualism to take place.
Again, not so. Since you have begun the practice of using insults, I will throw it right back at you and say you are not only the ignorant one, but naive as well.
The general belief that one can communicate with the dead is spiritualism and it has all kinds of shapes and flavors. Many people go through a medium because they don't have confidence in their own abilities, others may feel more comfortable in a group setting and participate in seances, but there are also many, many individuals who attempt to contact the dead on their own.
Whatever form it takes, contacting those beyond the grave is unhealthy even if one claims to be communicating with a christian. There is no reason to think that anyone beyond the grave has clout with God concerning what goes on here on Earth. Mixing it up with those beyond the grave invites confusion about what it is to be walking in Christ.
When you're going to pray to somone in the spirit pray to God. Jesus opened up the way for believers to approach the throne of grace and that's superlative news and what the Book of Hebrews is all about. God is more than able and there's no reason not to, except for a mistaken belief that you, if a believer, are barred from His presence.
The general belief that one can communicate with the dead is spiritualism and it has all kinds of shapes and flavors.
Incorrect. Spiritualism is in fact a specific religion, with distinctive tenets. If you use the word spiritualism in a manner not meaning the specific religion then it refers to the belief that the dead can communicate directly with the living through a medium. All uses of spiritualism relate to people who believe that the spirits of the dead can be brought to engage in active two-way communication with the living. All of this is unlike Catholicism on multiple fronts.
1. God is the God of the living, not the dead. The saints are not dead, but alive in Christ.
2. Catholics do not believe that the "dead" communicate with the living, or that such a thing should be attempted, but rather that the petitions of the living are heard by those alive in Christ. The "communication" spoken of by spiritualists, and other such people, has nothing in common with the petitions we place before the saints. Ouija boards have nothing to do with the Ave Maria.
Your insistence that what you (wrongly, as I have shown) interpret as a similarity between Catholicism and one slim part of spiritualism, while leaving out all the distinctive elements of that movement, is silly and wrong. Using that ridiculous "logic" I could equally legitimately claim that all Muslims are Christian. They pray to God, and Christians pray to God, and so they are Christians! Silly. Both Christianity and Islam are defined by much more than that.
There is no reason to think that anyone beyond the grave has clout with God concerning what goes on here on Earth.
Then why do you think you have clout? Every Protestant I know asks for the prayers of other believers, and yet if you can go to God, why ask each other? Do you really think any other sinful human being currently living in this world "has clout with God"?
What separates you and I is that I don't think God is the God of the dead, but the living. Christians are Christian here, and in the next life. We are to pray for one another and ask one another for prayers in this life, and in the next. Clout does not enter into it, love does. We should love one another. Death is not the end of love as you seem to think.
Spiritualism is used in all kinds of areas from Haiti to downtown NYC by all kinds of people professing all kinds of religions or none. The thing that sets them apart is that they try to communicate with spirits.
that separates you and I is that I don't think God is the God of the dead, but the living
Yes, the living. But there are saints who alive here and there are saints who have passed from this earth.
Death is not the end of love as you seem to think
You infer much about what I think. 1 Cor 13 makes your point obvious and I never thought otherwise. However, there is nothing to indicate that those who have passed on are able to communicate with those in this temporal realm. One can love and not communicate. The catholics have invented that story, but that doesn't make it true.
Spiritualism is used in all kinds of areas from Haiti to downtown NYC by all kinds of people professing all kinds of religions or none. The thing that sets them apart is that they try to communicate with spirits.
We cannot, for the sake of accuracy, turn comparisons into identification. Some people do things like spiritualists, but that doesn't necessarily make them spiritualists. Not unless they hold all the peculiarities of that view. And comparisons should not be pushed too far. Women who think their recently departed husband can hear them speak to them at their funeral are hardly spiritualists.
Yes, the living. But there are saints who alive here and there are saints who have passed from this earth.
Having passed from this earth is nothing. Christ defeated death, and to be apart from the body is to be with Christ. And that certainly does not mean being less Christian or no longer being a member of his body. We on earth are members of his body, and so are the saints who are not dead but with him right now.
However, there is nothing to indicate that those who have passed on are able to communicate with those in this temporal realm. One can love and not communicate. The catholics have invented that story, but that doesn't make it true.
You insist on talking about "communicating" in some manner akin to necromancy. Catholics do nothing of the kind, which is why why your constant references to spiritualism are so wrong. Spiritualists believe, among other ridiculous things, in making physical contact with the dead and asking them questions and getting answers. Occult silliness which invites demonic activity. The Church and the Lord forbid it. Christians pray for one another, and ask each other for their prayers. That is the Christian way, and it is a part of life in the Church, the mystical Body of Christ. In your view, death severs that body and one half does not pray for the other half and cannot be asked for prayers by them.
Your view of what constitutes death is wholly unchristian and inadequate. It infects how you view everything else. If I ask a fellow believer to pray for me you would evince no shock at all. That is what Christians do. But, if that person passes onto the next life you suddenly think he cannot do this or I cannot ask him. Not only that, but the mere request becomes "worship." Asking other believers for prayers is certainly not an act of worship, as surely you do it yourself. Prayers for one another also are not any kind of mediation or intercession which infringes on the role of Christ.
The only thing which changes such requests for prayer from a virtue to an evil is "death," which doesn't even exist. Christ defeated it, and his Body cannot be divided. Your point of view destroys the integrity of Christ's Body and lifts what Christ destroyed to something stronger than he is himself. Are you not a member of Christ? Are the saints who have passed not also members of Christ? If Christ himself is divided by death, then death is not destroyed, and you are not saved. Your view is distorted and does not reflect a proper Christian understanding. We should not allow fear of things like "spiritualism," which has nothing to do with Christian faith and hope, eat away our confidence in the victory of Christ.
Which is exactly what the lady in the article did. Not healthy.
If I ask a fellow believer to pray for me you would evince no shock at all. That is what Christians do. But, if that person passes onto the next life you suddenly think he cannot do this or I cannot ask him
Passing from this earth obiously alters the physical state. There is no longer any 2-way communication such as one had when one could look a person in the face and give AND receive communication. The relationship has changed...and that is what happens when the perishable perishes. This world and the next are different.
Catholics pretend that the same type of communion is still in effect as if you had a christian neighbor next door. It is not and you should not pretend you have such a relationship when a person goes on to glory.
Which is exactly what the lady in the article did. Not healthy.
I think it may be possible to criticize what the person in the article did, and many Catholics would likely be first in line to do so. But that doesn't mean that Catholics praying to Mary or the saints actually seek to communicate with ghosts, as spiritualists do. I am not sure I am comfortable with exactly what this person did, but it is not quite spiritualism even at its worst.
Passing from this earth obiously alters the physical state.
Of course it does, and our actions recognize this. That is why we don't send letters addressed to Jesus and expect the postal service to deliver them. We don't dial heaven on the phone and ask to speak to the Mother of God. But, the scriptures attest that the Church is the mystical body of Christ and therefore she is. There is one body, not two, and it cannot be divided. Suggesting that physical death can overrule the authority of Christ is hardly convincing. If death divides Christ's body then, quite literally, the gates of Hades have overcome it. But, he defeated death, and so he cannot possibly be subject to it, either in his person or his Body the Church.
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