Posted on 01/08/2011 4:15:03 PM PST by Natural Law
What are we to make of the anti-Catholics?
What are we to make of the anti-Catholics? How can we explain the assault on the Church by those who profess in their words the same mission of the Church, the Salvation of mankind, but through their deeds deny it? Are the fabrications, falsehoods, and lies about the supporting beliefs of the Church, about the lives of its saints and clergy, about the verifiable facts of history justified because of doctrinal disagreements? Does any of this matter in the face of the greater assault on Christ and his flock? It defies rational thinking.
In the face of a Muslim onslaught that is bombing Christmas Masses, executing Christians for a nonexistent heresy and apostasy, and a jihad against Christians of all stripes on a massive scale we get shrill unwarranted criticism of how Catholics peaceably worship the One true God. Is smells and bells really a greater sin than sawing off heads in the name of the prophet?
In the face of a secular socialist assault that is killing babies at a pace that outpaces the crimes of Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined there are degrading insults and accusations over the difference between worship and veneration. Corrections and explanations are ignored and the apologists are pilloried. For what purpose?
In the face of the threat of Communist China that suppresses worship of all kinds and enforces forced abortions we get feeble ad naseum criticism of the Real Presence in spite of the acceptance by Catholics, both Eastern and Latin Rite, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists. All the while the anti-Catholics continue the charade of Christian unity, minus those damned Catholics of course.
So in the face of the advance of worldwide evil some would have us believe that it is the Catholic Church should be destroyed when the destruction of the Church would serve to provide aid and comfort to that evil. Why? Qui Bono, for whom the benefit?
That the Church is and has always been a target of evil cannot be denied. Neither can it be denied that the Church has never been harmed or compromised by that evil. Satan can only work in this world through the actions of his willing accomplices. Those accomplices have long ago recognized that the greatest harm can be done from within the Church and history has produced numerous examples of sinners wearing the collars of priests. Regardless of the contentions of the anti-Catholics that does not negate the good that the Church has done not diminish the saints who have served God through her. Nor does it excuse those who blame one of the victims of the evil doers, the Church itself.
Perhaps those who irrationally assault the Church daily, those who spend inordinate hours researching the internet looking for dirt, those who accept any lie or indiscretion on nothing more than its bias against the Church are consciously or unconsciously in league with evil. Lex Parsimoniae, the principle which generally recommends accepting the answer that requires the fewest assumptions, when the potential answers are equal in all other respects. Is there a simpler answer?
What you obviously refuse to consider is that the process of the creation of physical reality (along with all its natural laws and processes) is by the very nature of things every bit as outside the purview of science as is your transubstantiation.
The only reason for rejecting one and accepting the other is sociological: you don't wish to be associated with "those people."
Only if "central Christian doctrines" purport that the Big Bang describes the sound they think creation made. However if it is (properly) interpreted as describing the suddenness and magnitude of creation there is nothing contradictory about it at all.
"The problem is that everyone (including yourself) subscribes to an "abracadabra" theory of ex-nihilation.
You don't know what I do or don't subscribe to.
I know that in order to even pretend to be an orthodox Catholic you must believe in some sort of creatio ex nihilo, whatever happened afterwards or however long it took. Otherwise you would be denying the dogma of creation altogether.
The argument is on what followed . . . whether or not the formation of the universe followed natural processes, or if natural processes did not assume their current form until after the formation was complete."
Are you implying that anything created by God is unnatural or that anything natural was not created by God?
I am saying (not implying) that it isn't natural for nature to exist. Nature is the creation of an omnipotent, supernatural G-d. This is inherent in the dogma of creation itself. Only G-d Himself exists "naturally."
I notice that your "unalterable laws of nature" never get in the way of the silly little magic tricks you want to believe in.
Oh sir, you wound me to the quick, oh verily you do!
To lump me in the same camp as Obama (sniff) oh I simply must make it to the fainting couch in time (crash)!
OK, here’s brass tacks: I don’t hate or disparage anyone because of their religion or locality. But when they come after me by attacking MY religion, then a critical response is in order.
BTW, where does it say that all Catholics are of big city immigrant stock? FWIW, my Protestant critics are younger men who experienced either divorce, spiritual awakening, or both. They’re down on ANYONE who doesn’t believe in predestination. Free will and freedom of choice between good and evil? Fugeddaboutit! They don’t even like Billy Graham. Too liberal.
Anyway, on this website anticatholicism is alive and well.
And firing back is kind of fun. Dominus vobiscum, y’all.
;^)
Thank you for your kind words. Unfortunately, Catholic and other liturgical chr*stians reject the historicity of the Biblical narrative of the first eleven chapters of Genesis out of hand because “that’s what the trailer trash believe.”
The unalterable laws of nature are what ever God says they are and are subject to change by the author only.
Most people wonder how someone else believes "nonsense" of some kind or another. I'm sure you wonder how Protestants can accept the historicity of Genesis. I wonder why people like you batter at Genesis with the sword of "science" but then sheathe that sword when it comes to the "virgin birth" or "transubstantiation."
I don’t believe I have ever batted at Genesis or the story of creation. I do not claim to know anything other than God created the world and all that is in it, all that is seen and unseen. How He did so is His mystery to reveal as He wishes.
What I do know is that a God great enough to create everything from nothing can, if He chooses make Himself present in the Eucharist. Another mystery that it His to reveal if/when/how He chooses.
>>Generally speaking, people who call themselves Christian, but are anti-Catholic (not to be confused with merely disagreeing with Catholic belief, but in despising or insulting the Church) are simply fools for whom vanity is the driving force in what passes for their faith.<<
You are an amazing soul. Thank you. I agree with you fully.
To lump me in the same camp as Obama (sniff) oh I simply must make it to the fainting couch in time (crash)!
Yeah, I kind of got the idea that you would rather be compared to Obama than to Primitive Baptists.
OK, here’s brass tacks: I don’t hate or disparage anyone because of their religion or locality.
And yet you did. Which logically means that your claim that you do not do so is . . . well . . . you know.
But when they come after me by attacking MY religion, then a critical response is in order.
I have "come after" no one's "religion." For your information, I disagree with just about every aspect of Catholicism and chr*stianity as a whole. I disagree with tritheism, incarnationism, cosmic dualism, salvationism (as chr*stianity understands it), etc., etc., etc. My attacks on the Catholic Church on this forum are limited to one and only one thing: its illogical, irrational, hypocritical, and sociologically-based war on the literal historicity of the first eleven chapters of Genesis.
I can understand why atheists and naturalists and mormons and hindus and so forth don't accept the literal historicity of Genesis. But the Catholic Church 1)has Genesis in its "bible," 2)claims to believe in creatio ex nihilo (unlike mormons who make no such claim), and 3)continually express their belief in a zillion other things that are just as "scientifically and historically impossible" as anything in Genesis 1-11. There is one and only one logical reason for this: an attitude of haughty derision towards "those knuckle-draggers from the backwoods" who believe it. It is nothing but class snobbery. There is simply no other explanation.
BTW, where does it say that all Catholics are of big city immigrant stock?
Your sneering insults in your earlier post pretty much identified rural America as "the enemy."
FWIW, my Protestant critics are younger men who experienced either divorce, spiritual awakening, or both. They’re down on ANYONE who doesn’t believe in predestination. Free will and freedom of choice between good and evil? Fugeddaboutit! They don’t even like Billy Graham. Too liberal.
So you can't respect anyone who thinks Billy Graham is a liberal? I guess you like your Protestants liberal. But then, most FReeper chr*stians seem to like their moslems liberal as well.
Anyway, on this website anticatholicism is alive and well.
I'm sorry, but you're being a crybaby. If you want to take a look at a religion under constant attack on FR I can give you two examples: islam and mormonism. Islam I can understand. Mormonism I don't agree with at all, but I don't argue with them because they don't claim to believe in creatio ex nihilo. Every single day threads and threads and threads and threads are posted attacking mormonism. There are people here to seem to do nothing but, and they ignore that the Catholic Church shares some of the things they despise about mormonism (some sort of "gentlemen's agreement," I take it). But you Catholics don't know diddly squat about being "under attack" at Free Republic.
And firing back is kind of fun. Dominus vobiscum, y’all.
;^)
I'm glad you find attacks on rural America so hilarious. I'd compare you to the liberals again, but since you would consider that a compliment . . .
In a sense it is a "mystery" to everyone. However, in another sense He did provide us with a historical account and chronology in Genesis. That you do not believe this is, of course, the typical Catholic position. However, it makes you a hypocrite for believing in other miracles while denying these.
What I do know is that a God great enough to create everything from nothing can, if He chooses make Himself present in the Eucharist. Another mystery that it His to reveal if/when/how He chooses.
While I don't believe in your "transubstantiation" I don't attack it. I attack one thing and one thing only: your church's war on the first eleven chapters of Genesis. It is the height of hypocrisy and social snobbery to reject the facticity of Genesis while accepting other "miracles" just as impossible.
Catholics on FR (and elsewhere) regularly wage open warfare on Genesis as if it were an evil, subversive book that is threatening to derail the entire Catholic religion. I guess they know something I don't.
I was Catholic for six years. And one of the things that drew me toward it was the "real presence." I also believed G-d could do anything. But I could not remain in good conscience in a religion that hypocritically taught the "real presence" while attacking the veracity of Genesis.
Do not suppose to tell me what I do or do not believe. I have never made an argument against the creation as told in Genesis. The Catholic Church does not say that I must or must not accept as historical the account of creation in Genesis.
The Church does not reject science either, and what you are trying to link as hypocrisy is actually the Church adhering to her both/and theology. It is not impossible that the creation of the world created a Big Bang, though there is no doubt in the Church that the creator of that band is God.
Genesis says it took six days to create the world. The New Testament tells us that one day is like a thousand years to God and vice versa. Therefore, you are relying on a false understanding of what the Church teaches to paint me personally as a hypocrite. Please do not make it personal.
Whoa, dude, chill out. If keyboard was an Olympic event, you’d be Jesse Owens.
I’ll have to save your screed to disk. In it there’s entertainment galore I’ve only skimmed over.
You’re anti-lotsofthings, I’ve noticed. Fun way to live.
;^)
*bang* sorry, never was a good proofreader of my own work:>)
Funny that as I write these things to you, I am listening to Father Corapi speak about Sacred Scripture. He has just remarked about the Old Testament and in those remarks he has said that some will say that the Old Testament is not true or is no longer important in light of Jesus and the New Testament.
Baloney, he says. The same Jesus that created the universe out of nothing could make fish out of fish. LOL
That is Catholic belief. No hypocrisy there.
Thank you. That is a very kind thing to say.
The current Catholic Church actively discourages a "literal" interpretation of the first eleven chapters of Genesis. It regards creationism and creationists as an embarrassment and for this reason doesn't proselytize in rural America. In fact, the official paper of my own diocese (I did tell you I used to be Catholic, correct?) once ran an article saying the Catholic Church would let the Fundamentalist churches have the creationists. So much for being a "universal" church. Meanwhile, totem poles are okay.
The Church does not reject science either, and what you are trying to link as hypocrisy is actually the Church adhering to her both/and theology. It is not impossible that the creation of the world created a Big Bang, though there is no doubt in the Church that the creator of that band is God.
And I said nothing that implied a rejection of science, unless you insist on maintaining that the world could not possibly have been created as narrated in Genesis because "that isn't how the world works."
Genesis says it took six days to create the world.
Indeed it does . . . not just in Genesis 1, but in several other places as well.
The New Testament tells us that one day is like a thousand years to God and vice versa.
I suggest you go back and read that passage (which is a quotation from the Hebrew Bible) again. It says nothing about the length or process of creation, but merely that G-d dwells outside time and what seems like "slackness" in the delay of the "second coming" isn't really slackness at all.
The Kolbe Center recently posted this article by Hugh Owen dealing with this very passage. Why don't you read it?
Therefore, you are relying on a false understanding of what the Church teaches to paint me personally as a hypocrite. Please do not make it personal.
Here you are 100% correct. I do not know you at all, and I took the hypocrisy of the teachings of the Catholic Church and applied them to you personally when I don't even know where in the Catholic spectrum you fit. I was wrong to do this. I attacked you personally, just as I have on occasion been attacked personally. I treated you exactly as I would not want to be treated. This is a great wrong I have committed against you, and I ask your forgiveness and pray G-d will grant me strength to restrain my emotions in the future.
"Chill out?"
People like you insult the most reviled population group in the country, employing identical language to that used by the Left, and I'm supposed to "chill out?"
No sir. I will never "chill out." I will never stand aside while cowards and bullies (whether Catholic or liberal) punch away at people they don't even know because they believe in the "wrong miracles," secure in the knowledge that there will never be payback.
Why don't you "chill out?" But no, you insist on maintaining your martyrdom and that of your co-religionists on this site.
If you can't take it . . . don't dish it out.
So long as I am here (and I have been here going on twelve years now) no one will ridicule rural Americans without consequence.
Baloney, he says. The same Jesus that created the universe out of nothing could make fish out of fish. LOL
That is Catholic belief. No hypocrisy there.
Would that were true. Unfortunately, while Fr. Corapi may believe in creatio ex nihilo as an abstract concept, he doesn't believe in the facticity of the events of the first eleven chapters of Genesis--and that is what this argument is about.
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