Replies

Were you not "anti-Christian," then we would see you "distance" yourself more than just "I don't go to Web sites discussing Christian theology." We would actually see you critique the sources of that name-calling.

With what time? I spend all my time on Defense here with myriads of peoples attacking my faith. I'll tell you what, You guys all take a week off and ping me to threads where "Christians" are being attacked and I'll come to your defense! Deal?

Yeah I didn't think so. It'd be fun.

As foe Being "anti Christian", LOL! I am a true follower of Jesus. Calling me anti Christ is not just stretching things, it's farce.

DU I'm not going to say that Mormonism isn't disparaged on FR; but I will say that a hefty chunk of it is simply regurgitated Mormon leader quotations coming right back atcha!

I will agree that lots of what is posted is accurate quotation as far as that goes, it's the editing that is the problem. you see the add this last election cycle about Taliban Dan? He said the words, the clip was not doctored, it was however edited because his intent was the exact opposite of the edited clips meaning. that happens to us a lot in these "Quotations"

What exactly is so "anti" about seeing if Mormonism can stand up to its own history and theological consistency?

What a masterfully crafted question. it's not our history that we disagree with, I study tat all the time myself. It's the spin anti's put on it that makes it anti. have you ever seen a propaganda film from WWII? I have a collection of cartoons and movie shorts that have been banned as politically incorrect. you would surely learn a thing or two from watching the collection.

DU, I assume you are (and/or have been) a tithing Mormon. Having said that, what I mean is -- it's simply too late for you to make this statement with full truth-bearing disclosure.

No, It's not.

Your contributions have already trickled into the coffers of publishing curricula & books & missionary training that calls us "apostates" -- and worse. The fact is, your leaders' belief system hasn't allowed us to have our "own belief" system minus your leaders' commentary.

Really? So where in the missionary Discussions does it call you apostate personally? (It does not)

Do we name your church, if you go to one, specifically? (we don't)

Has your church, if you have one ever claimed to be the "true church" or declared another group to be apostate (like us for example?)

If so, you have nothing to complain about.

We can't simply be -- to use the denominational names you used -- Baptist, Calvinistic, Lutheran and Catholic; no, your leaders have had to tinge our church as being the "church of the devil" by applying 1 Nephi 14:9-10 to us!

OK, Theoretical question, If God causes a scripture to be written, is a church leader responsible for what it says, or God?

None of the Current church leaders can in any way be held responsible for the content of the Book of Mormon. Joseph smith translated that Book by the Gift and power of God. God is responsible for what is in it, and you are free to go to him in the matter as soon and as often as you like.

Just because you have personally delegated this commentary to your leaders, and funded their efforts in the process, doesn't alleviate you of your role in all of this!

So if I pay tithes to God, I am responsible for what God does with my tithing...

I will not bother to argue with you, arguing with the insane is a fruitless endeavor.

My father once said "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" -- Not sure where he got it, but it's saved me a lot of headaches.

I assume you did your two-year mission. How many times did you use the phrase (or a similar one to it), "universal apostasy and restoration?"

I served in Taiwan, the phrase you are using does not translate well for they would be thinking of Buddhism, I did however after teaching them who God was give them a brief over view of Christan history and the fall. (Not trying to be difficult, just accurate)

The church did Fall, that is documented. the first council of Nicea where they changed the very definition of God to make it more acceptable to pagans is a great example. You can argue with me all you like, but the Catholic churches own records make this crystal clear.

Delph Was PD out of line for posting this? I don't know, but it could have been handled better.

PD can post what he wants to. The issue here is where he posted it -- what boundaries he attached to it.

and what was done as punishment. if this is how all other improperly posted caucus articles are handled from now on, well we just had the misfortune to be the first. if they are handled in a "nicer" way then we were singled out.

Delph

I don’t want to write any more on the subject of the cult of Mormonism.

But I’ll leave you with the most salient point.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. The Cross is the apex of all history.

I see a lot of doctrine in Joseph Smith but not a lot of discussion on how we overcome our sin through the shed blood of Jesus in Mormonism.

Smith had so much open sin in his life.

Masonry.

Adultery.

Polygamy.

Murder.

Witchcraft.

Rebellion.

I just don’t get it how Mormons don’t get it that God will judge us for our sins, we are condemned already in our sins without Jesus Christ. We need the Lord to help us daily pick up our cross and deny our flesh (our sin nature) etc. This overcoming of our old man of sin cannot be done without the help of the Holy Spirit.

These are discussions that Mormons do not have. It’s a “grit your teeth” religion, there is no power of the Spirit over sin in Mormonism.

In fact, original Mormonism promotes sin! Polygamy is a sin and the Apostle Paul said that only a man of one wife could be an elder etc.

It’s all crazy and sad, this Mormon religion. I pray that every one of them open their eyes and start reading the real Bible and are saved from their sins.

So where in the missionary Discussions does it call you apostate personally? (It does not)

(Tell us, DU...exactly how long have you had trouble with that vocabulary word, "universal"???)

Has your church, if you have one ever claimed to be the "true church" or declared another group to be apostate (like us for example?) If so, you have nothing to complain about.

(Nice try...#1 show me a Protestant or Evangelical church which puts the word "ONLY" in front of "true" -- like the Mormons do in D&C 1:30...and then show me where they claim that's a direct revelation from God!)

OK, Theoretical question, If God causes a scripture to be written, is a church leader responsible for what it says, or God? None of the Current church leaders can in any way be held responsible for the content of the Book of Mormon. Joseph smith translated that Book by the Gift and power of God. God is responsible for what is in it, and you are free to go to him in the matter as soon and as often as you like.

More crock, DU. More shameful Lds apologetics. Simply put, you are guilty of reducing this to an issue merely of...
...Inspiration...["God said it. Go bug him."]
...And interpretation...["Smith translated that Book by the Gift and power of God Go bug him."]
...But you conveniently neglected the issue of application [see my comment below]
...As well as grassroots Mormons like yourself who has funded that application!!!

What do I mean? Let's look @ 1 Nephi 14:9-10 in the BoM. Didn't Smith date that as citing B.C. times?

If it was only a conspiracy of one -- Smith & his book of mormon --
--Or two (Smith and his god)--
---then were we to see contemporary Mormons & their leaders be magnanimous in their interpretation --
--by erroring on the side of charity...
--We would have seen these contemporaries say, "Well, 1 Nephi was written in B.C. times & what Nephi said applied to the B.C. era; therefore we won't import a B.C. description to club over the head of an A.D. dynamic."

But do we see that from Lds Inc?

In November, Restornu said to me after I pointed out that the Lds church stance on the Christian church as the "church of the devil" was still taught by Lds: "Those are your opinions just like your bais [sic] opinion that does not make them doctrines" [Restornu]

Here was my response to Restornu:

Let's just take one of those quotes and review it:

Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "The church of the devil is...EVERY church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)

McConkie says here that every non-Mormon church is the "church of the devil" -- doesn't matter if they're "Parading" under a Christian banner or a pagan one...McConkie labels us devilish.

Now this specific quotation was published second hand at: The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Seminaries and Institutes of Religion: Book of Mormon Student Manual: Chapter 4: 1Nephi 11–14: Notes and Commentary [Updated Note: A link, BTW, which has conveniently disappeared in less than two months' time]

Are telling us, Restornu that your Lds Institutes are teaching the mere "opinions" of men in their Lds Institute curricula aimed at impressionable college students? They're not teaching "doctrine?" Do you realize this comes direct from the Lds church curricula department...and is published at Lds.org?

Will you go on the record, Resty, and tell us that you have shot off an e-mail to Lds.org -- where this quote is found -- and tell them to stop teaching what you seem to claim is the doctrine of mere men?
Source: Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary [And, of course, Restornu didn't respond to the above post in November!]

So if I pay tithes to God, I am responsible for what God does with my tithing... [DU]

Well, we agree on one thing: The Mormon church is your "god," alright...(no wonder First President Marion G. Romney called the Mormon church "the way, the truth, and the life" in the early 1960s!)

Tell us, DU...did McConkie when he was alive get paid out of tithe funds by Mormons? Did the writer of The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Seminaries and Institutes of Religion: Book of Mormon Student Manual: Chapter 4: 1Nephi 11–14: Notes and Commentary get paid out of tithe funds by Mormons?

DU, if you & your fellow grassroots Mormons pay salaries of people employed to APPLY the phrase "church of the devil" (and "apostate") to us -- and if you don't put up any fuss about that -- then the labels are on YOUR head...or should I say...it's funded by your personal wallet!