Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ

I’m-finally-caught-up
_________________________________

BAH

Wait...

Didn't you just post this:

Can’t get away from a thread of people crapping on my religion?

So how are we supposed to know where to or not to crap?

If you are a man with a skin discharge and you touch the WII remote, it has to be destroyed. Really, it's in there.

FDTSLOL

Ah yes, duplicity on parade ... you toss out a slur and don’t ping Jim to your post? Typical

I already told him "to his face" in another post, what I have to ping him every time someone wants to talk about it? That'd be really rude.

Besides, you guys are doing your best to get all Mormons with a spine banned with this thread, hey why should I be the lone holdout?

Delph

One thousand!

My answer is that we as Christians are no longer bound by the law.

Christ fulfilled the law. It no longer applies to Christians and those who insist on keeping even one part of the law are bound by ALL of it (I can source that btw). That is what leads to legalism like the LDS.

It makes perfect sense not to follow the Law.

And before you go off on the ‘Christans think they can sin all they want’ rant we don’t. We are bound by only 2 commandments (not the 10) - love your God and love your neighbor (and the 10 plus many more are covered by those two). I do good works not because I am bound by the law (I am not) but because I am ALREADY SAVED BY GRACE and Heaven bound, those good works come out of the 2 commandments. That is all.

It makes sense to Christians, but it makes no sense to the spiritually blind.

God-by-committee placemarker

LOL!!!

Lurkers will note that the anti-Mormon propagandist misrepresents material and ignores explanations provided. As usual.

How can a man start claiming to be a prophet and by blather and constant repetition, attain the status of a deity?

" The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success

unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -

- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

You wish to make the teaching of the trinity (not found in the Scriptures

- - - - - -
You are kidding, right?

While the word trinity isn’t used, the teaching is there.

Start here:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num5.htm

Oh my HECK, weren’t you going away about 700 posts ago?

I’ll have to disagree with you on that one FRiend, but let’s not let it put anything between us. :)

Godzilla, I am very familiar with your opinion of polygamy.

Polygamy: How it all got Started

Joe: Hey Emma! Guess what!?

Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?

Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.

Emma: WHAT!? You ding bat! Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says? After all; YOU are the one that translated it!

Joe: Books; schmooks. All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!

Emma: "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"

Joe: Silly Woman! You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!

...and the rest is HISTORY...

THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Or even HERE:

1 Timothy 3:2-3
2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 3:12
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

Emma: That's IT! I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!!

Joe: DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!! Wait!!! I hear a voice again!!!

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be ^bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.

And now: the End of Polygamy

OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy—

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.

EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us.

(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it.

(From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

What kind of 'Leadership' is THIS???

compared to...

Hebrews 11:35-40
35. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
36. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
37. They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
38. the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

or compared to...

Acts 4:19. But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.

So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!

Well; it DID last about 47 years!

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...

I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President

James 2:10

King James Bible
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Do you keep the whole law, Delph?

"In their belief system, Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith."

It's an assumption on the part of mormons or anyone for that matter, to believe that. JS never recorded that he was speaking to God or that Jesus was speaking to him. He used the word "personages".

The use of the word "Personages" is in no way an adequate description of God and Jesus, I don't care how anyone tries to spin that.

1 John:

4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.

6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

First off, the warning about testing the spirits and the fact that false prophets would be known by their worldliness. Well, JS was quite worldly. He was a lecher, a thief, a con-man, etc. Many of the things JS did while he was the "prophet" were the behaviors that are in direct contradiction of a Godly man. There were a lot of "convenient" "revelations" that "permitted" him a great deal of latitude.

Secondly, the "personages" description and the failure of the spirits to clearly identify and confess Jesus during the purported 1st vision.

The narrative (1st vision, [pick a version]) is ambiguous, it does not clearly state that God and Jesus, came down, nor does he claim to have heard the name of Jesus, just "this is my beloved son..." (That IS NOT "confessing" Jesus). It's implied through the use of descriptive language. But at no time does the personage(spirit) state absolutely that it was Jesus who was going to "speak" to JS.

Wishing something to be true doesn't make it true.

Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ who taught:

That Jesus and Satan are brothers
That God had incestuous sexual relations with His daughter, Mary, impregnating her with Jesus
That Christian pastors are "dimwitted hirelings of Satan"
Of sacred scriptures based on pagan works such as prayers to Egyptian gods for dead spirits – which were supposedly translated using occult devices such as peep stones
That God is a polygamous celestial stud married to our Heavenly Mother, whose name is so sacred we are not to say it out loud
Of Kolob and of other worlds named Planet Oblish and Planet Enish-go-on-dosh ruled by a governing power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam
Of prominent display of Satanic symbols such as pentagrams, baphomets, earth stones, and saturn stones on his churches' religious buildings and literature
Of portraying Satan as the god of this world and having him teach church doctrine in the Mormon temple ceremony
Of the wearing a fig leaf apron in temple ceremonies to symbolize Satan’s power and priesthoods
Of offering prayers to the devil in the temple ceremony – Oh God, hear the words of my mouth – and of praising him in the sacred rites by chanting Hebrew words whose translation is Marvelous Lucifer
That husbands can resurrect their wives from the grave
Of having special grips and clasps in order to tell ghosts from angels and the devil
Of practicing baptism for the dead
Of wearing magic underwear to protect from physical harm – with symbols so sacred that they must be cut out and buried and the garment burned when it wears out
That the Ten Lost Tribes and the apostle John will be discovered living in cement houses in a tropical land adjacent to the North Pole separated by a high mountain range
That men about six feet tall, dressed like Quakers, will be discovered dwelling on the moon where they live for about 1,000 years
That science will prove the earth has knobs on each end
That he was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors – eventually devising an Inspired Revision completed in 1833 – which was rejected by his church who still uses the King James Version
That his followers are not saved by grace, but instead are burdened by a complex series of rules and regulations which determine their progression as gods of their own planets and the ultimate size and quality of their harem of goddess wives
That he was greater than Jesus

Seriously, do you really believe that a true Apostle of Jesus Christ would proclaim any of the above blasphemies? Really?

Joseph Smith...does sit in judgment on us according to Brigham Young and others who tell us he must “certify” us into glory"

"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph" --Brigham Young --JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224 ”

Second President Brigham Young once remarked, "I know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that this is the Gospel of salvation, and if you do not believe it you will be damned, every one of you" (Journal of Discourses 4:298, March 29, 1857). ”

On October 9, 1859, Young said, "From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Journal of Discourses 7:289). ”

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321 ”

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..." - Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88 ”

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" - (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142) ”

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190 ”

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155 ”

...to get by Joseph Smith... ”

"They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work. He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon. He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood. As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun. Who has made this so? Have I? Have this people? Have the world? No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it. If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph. If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass. Can you pass without his inspection? No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times. In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet. They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent? They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?" Brigham Young --JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224