Posted on 12/31/2010 8:33:04 AM PST by marshmallow
EVERVIRGIN has been a title of our Lady from the earliest days; it appears, albeit obiter, in the documents of councils from Chalcedon onwards. It still appears (confiteor; Communicantes) in the Novus Ordo Mass; was rather more frequent in the Classical Roman Rite; and comes very often in the Byzantine Rite. It is part of the Church's Marian dogma, and was treated respectfully, if rather evasively, by the ARCIC document on Mary. Non-Catholics sneer at it. The great Tom Wright is dismissive. Let us consider the question in the form of a Socratic Dialogue.
The Gospels make it quite clear that Jesus had brothers.
They don't. Adelphoi can mean kinsmen. It doesn't have to mean uterine (that is, born-of-the-same-womb) brothers.
So you say. But that's the obvious meaning if anyone talks about "Jesus' brothers" in any language, isn't it?
Not at all. Mark's and Matthew's Gospels, in their accounts of the Crucifixion, both talk about "Mary the mother of James and Joses [or Joseph]". If this Mary had been the same as Christ's own mother, it would have been very odd for them not to refer to her as the Mother of Jesus. The "obvious" and natural inference is that the "Mother of James and Joses" was a different Mary from "Mary the Mother of Jesus".
So what?
Well, in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55, the places where those "brothers of Jesus" are mentioned, the full text reads: " Jesus the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses [or Joseph] and Judas and Simon". We've just seen that this James and this Joses are apparently the sons of some Mary who was not the same as Mary the Mother of Jesus. And they're the first two on the list here. The list is thus clearly not itemising individuals who were uterine brothers of Jesus.
Well, I still think it's obvious that ...
If it's so "obvious", you've got some explaining to do. Throughout the second century the Gospels were increasingly regarded as 'canonical' and authoritative. If it is so "obvious" that James and the rest of those listed in the Gospels were uterine brothers of Jesus, then the tradition that Jesus was Mary's only child must have arisen well before those Gospels came to be regarded as authorities. Otherwise, when somebody started saying "she never had any more children", somebody who had read the Gospels would have said "Aha, you're wrong: here's a list of his brothers". So, if you're right about it being so "obvious", you're going to have to admit that Mary's perpetual virginity is so early a tradition as to predate the acquisition of authority by our Four Gospels; which modern scholarship dates to the beginning of the second century at the latest. I've got you either way.
That's all gobbledegook. It's obvious ...
That's the problem with you Prods and you Liberals. You're impervious to evidence and to reason.
Of course we are. "Reason is the Devil's Whore". Martin Luther said so. It's obvious.
“Strong viewpoints” do not include pejoratives.
This thread is a trolling thread. And the catholic posters have been posting many such threads recently.
> “Strong viewpoints” do not include pejoratives.
>
> This thread is a trolling thread. And the catholic
> posters have been posting many such threads recently.
Bears repeating.
Strong viewpoints” do not include pejoratives.
Of course they DO. For a fuller explanation, please read the RF rules. That may help with understanding. Pejoratives are a regular part of every Catholic/Protestant thread. Again, if someone is a new poster, they will not realize that. The rule is, not to make the pejorative personal to a specific poster.
I can say, "Protestants are too thick-headed to realize that no Catholic makes an idol of Mary." I cannot say, "X Poster is too thick-headed to realize that no Catholic makes an idol of Mary." See? The pejorative cannot be personal.
You may feel free to disagree with me; in that case, please go to the Religion Moderator, and ask him/her.
If you think so, why fall for the bait?
It is bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian.
Whether it is within or without of some ruleset is not at issue.
If Catholics wish to have bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with others, it is of no surprise to me, and simply reinforces a history of bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with the world.
Beautiful! See? It is clear that you know perfectly well how to post insulting remarks against Catholics on the Religion Forum.
Now, I will be vastly impressed to see any protestant poster, say the same thing to any other protestant poster who makes posts in bad manners, poor taste and unchristian toward Catholics.
> If you think so, why fall for the bait?
The same question could be asked of you.
To me, the thread is not “bait.”
“Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.”
1st Cor 8:11
1st Cor 13:1-8
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Thank you, sincerely, for posting one of my favorite passages of scripture.
I engaged in strong, and truthfully held opinion. I did NOT engage in pejorative, bad manners, or unchristian behavior, which is basis of the entire point.
And yes I do EXACTLY the same thing to protestants. I have had lengthy “debates” with the supposed protestants on FR who post this same kind of thread that has been posted here (though actually NOT as bad - they do NOT include pejoratives that I have seen) against Mormons.
My personal opinion is what Jesus said (paraphrasing “he who does a miracle in my name cannot lightly speak evil of me - forbid him not” - and I believe that applies to Catholics and Mormons.
I believe we have much more important enemies than each other today, and these TROLLING THREADS do NOT serve Christ in ANY way, and if Jesus were to come back today, he would not be happy with those who have posted them, CONTRARY to their belief.
Those who engaged in this kind of thing have wasted their time, and hidden their talent under a rock.
Whether it is within or without of some ruleset is not at issue.
If protestants wish to have bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with others, it is of no surprise to me, and simply reinforces a history of bad manners, poor taste, and unchristian attitudes in their dealings with the world.
As you have only been a FReeper for two months, would you please provide a link to such a lengthy debate with the supposed protestants on FR who post this same kind of thread?
I agree, we have much more important enemies than each other.
;-D
> To me, the thread is not “bait.”
Neither is it to me, but rather another vehicle for disdainful speech and “doubtful disputations” (Rom 14:1) which must be exposed.
Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
2nd Tim 2:23-26
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
1st Tim 6:3-9
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:17
These things I command you, that ye love one another.
> Thank you, sincerely, for posting one of my favorite
> passages of scripture.
Amen, sister.
Let us seek common ground, rather than reasons to dispute one another.
Disagreements should be left as that. Disagreements. End.
Seems as though you really know how to be a good follower of Christ, and how to back that up with Scripture.
Congratulations! I am certain such a person would never say anything rude to a Catholic about Catholic beliefs, practices, traditions, dogma, etc.
Thanks.
The issue then is not her Virginity after Christ was born, but whether ALL SALVATION is Obtained through Mary as Pope Pius IX said in the UBI PRIMAM of 1854 and the Dogma in 1854:
"For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."
We Protestants maintain that the Lord Jesus Christ IS our ONLY Salvation. His death on the Cross, paid the price of Sin on behalf of folks like us. The Scriptures say there "IS NO SALVATION IN ANY OTHER".
It is the Insertion of the Traditions of Man to give away Salvation to Mary and is a result of the low view of Scripture held.
We Protestants also maintain that Matthew is correct in Verse 1:25 "But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born."
Joseph, a Righteous Man, bided his time until the right time to consummate his marriage to his betrothed Mary.
Praise God! I am not joking. My dear protestant relatives and I gain a lot of comfort and strength from praying with one another through family trials; we never seem to have any need to disagree.
I've noticed that too. What's with that?
When you debate a Catholic on FR, many of them end up saying how persecuted they are when they encounter another opinion.
Yet they are starting all these threads lately just looking for a fight.
Weird.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.