Posted on 12/30/2010 9:10:59 PM PST by jsherk
I have been reading the facts about a free church and not requiring a 501c3 in many places, including this forum: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1702880/posts
Just wondering if anybody knows any Lawyers or Accountants in the Dallas area that are very familiar in with this issue (free church, non-incorporation and no 501c3.
Thanks
I really like the idea.
The State will not stop muzzling churches politically, until the State recognizes the pre-eminence of God over the State itself. The State also needs to recognize the co-sovereignty of the Church over the citizenry. Until then, IMO no church should ever seek 501(c)3 status.
501(c)3 is not a requirement. That is only to have the IRS track you as a ‘non-profit’. An “unorganized church” would have absolutely no reason to be filing anything with the IRS. The IRS wouldn’t know it existed for all intents and purposes because it is doing nothing that needs their attention.
eh? The state nor the church are soveriegn over the citizens, then they'd be subjects. Unless you meant something else.
I like the idea of a church not asking the IRS (government) permission to exist.
“An “unorganized church” would have absolutely no reason to be filing anything with the IRS. The IRS wouldn’t know it existed for all intents and purposes because it is doing nothing that needs their attention.”
If you have a bank account, you have to have some form of organization—or you the individual are the church. If the church takes in money and deposits it, it has to have something to do with the IRS.
Any time you get money, the IRS believes it needs their attention.
Governments and Churches don't hold sovereignty here.
And if that's not clear.... I'd have to explain it in person. I choose my government. I choose my church. If you don't like that... pound sand.
/johnny
Does this include a local fantasy football club? heh
That's pretty clear in the rules we established.
/johnny
There are thousands of unincorporated and non-501(c)(3) churches around the country.
These are choices the churches themselves make.
If you are in Texas, your Texas state constitution probably already has a clause in it similar to the US Constitution's First Amendment, and under those provisions, neither the federal or state governments can even define what a church is—it cannot define what YOUR church is, unless you actually define it for them in a church constitution and by-laws, and file these with the secretary of state.
When churches apply for 501(c)(3) or other status with the IRS, then they are actually allowing the IRS to define what your church is, what your church purposes are, what your offices and officers are, etc.
But not one single law anywhere in the United States that we are aware of requires any church to do any of these things at any time.
You are free in the United States to organize a local church or a fellowship of local churches without the first shred of paper ever being filed at any state or federal agency. This is included under the free exercise of religion, free expression, free press, free speech, freedom to assemble, etc.
When churches CHOOSE to incorporate, they must then play by the state's rules. When they CHOOSE to sign that “contract” with the IRS for favors and exemptions, then they are agreeing by their own signature authority to abide by the IRS’ definition of things, their guidelines, their restrictions and limitations, etc. There are no laws requiring either incorporation or contractual agreement with the IRS ever to take place.
No church is required to inform any state government or the federal government that it even exists.
There are fellowships of “NON-REGISTERED” churches: one being the American Coalition of Unregistered Churches (ACUC); another of the fundamentalist Baptist persuasion, the Unregistered Baptist Fellowship (UBF). And there are probably others.
The Unregistered Baptist Fellowship (UBF) has a web site, and you can Google that. Their site has a wide range of published articles on this subject, and they publish a periodical, on-line and in print, called THE TRUMPET. I recommend that (even if you are not Baptist) to go to the UBF site and read the articles there for principles involved in keeping churches unregistered.
We firmly endorse the unregistered church movement in the United States.
In China, Russia, Viet Nam, and other communist and totalitarian countries, churches must be registered with the government. This is not YET the case in the USA.
If Christian Church members were smart, they’d all go underground to worship, give, and whatever else they do. If they can’t see the writing on the wall, then they deserve the fate of their ancestors.
If Christian Church members were smart, they’d all go underground to worship, give, and whatever else they do. If they can’t see the writing on the wall, then they deserve the fate of their ancestors.
ABSOLUTELY !
I hope this thread goes on for a good while so that Christians can begin to learn to break this concept, so stuck in their minds, that churches must somehow tell the government what they are doing, and surrender the the Lordship of Christ over the churches to unregenerate civil government.
I agree with you.
WHAT IS IT?
1. The UBF is a fellowship of Baptist pastors, evangelists, missionaries and laymen.
2. The purpose of the UBF is to provide an opportunity for men of like spirit (Acts 4:24) and like mind (Philippians 2:1,2), who are personally and ecclesiastically separated (Amos 3:3; II Corinthians 6:15-17), holding to the historic Baptist doctrines of the written Word of God (KJV 1611).
The further goal of this fellowship is to revive and maintain the purity of the historic Baptist faith of our first-century forebearers (I Timothy 6:3-5) that we might maintain and leave for our posterity in this dispensation of Grace (I Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 3:1,2; Colosians 1:25) a vibrant, healthy and prepared Bride ready for the Lord's return (Ephesians 5:25-27).
Finally, we trust that Almighty God will strengthen us in the trying hours of these last days to remain faithful and true to the doctrines which have been entrusted to us from faithful men who were willing to suffer and die for the Gospel's sake (Ephesians 6:10-20).
3. State (monthly) and regional meetings of the UBF will be encouraged and held as the Lord leads.
4. There will be no national or state officers. The pastor of the host church will be the moderator at the time that the meetings are in session.
5. The UBF is not a denomination; it is a fellowship, but is not incorporated, has no headquarters, owns no property, employs no workers, holds no bank accounts, owns no equipment, maintains no membership, adopts no Constitution and operates with no by-laws.
6. There will be an annual meeting, as the Lord leads, and it will always be under the authority of the host church, with the host pastor having the final authority on all speakers.
7. The UBF will have no mission board, director, committee, or clearing house; but will encourage local church missionaries, home and foreign, to start unregistered Baptist churches.
"And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:18-20)
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body." (Ephesians 5:23)
"Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles." (III John 7)
Of Civil Government
We believe that civil government is of divine appointment, for the interests and good order of human society; that magistrates are to be prayed for, conscientiously honored and obeyed; except only in things opposed to the will of our Lord Jesus Christ; who is the only Lord of the conscience, and the coming Prince of the kings of the earth. We believe that civil government occupies a sphere of sovereignty which is separate and distinct from that of the New Testament Church, and just as the church may not take up the sword of the magistrate, so civil government is prohibited from taking up the spiritual keys of the church or usurping any authority over it. The authority of civil government ends at the threshold of the church, since it can have no jurisdiction in the realm of church government or any assembly of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Exodus 18:21-22; II Samuel 23:3; Psalm 72:11; Daniel 3:17-18; Matthew 10:28, 22:21, 23:10; Acts 4:19-20, 23:5; Romans 13:7; Philippians 2:10-11, Titus 3:1, I Peter 2:13-14, 17 -----------------------------------------------------
Read much more at:
http://www.unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com/
I understand you needing to talk to a lawyer to satify yourself.
In my previous dealings with churches and other orgaizations it has always been my understanding that 501(c)3 was not required for organizations that function as a church. A common test was that if the religious organization meet regularly and performed weddings and burial services and they otherwise functioned as a church it is “a church.”
Here is the relevant IRS code stating that they are exempt.(follow to the last line of the copied text under “Mandatory exceptions”.
§ 508. Special rules with respect to section 501 (c)(3) organizations
(a) New organizations must notify Secretary that they are applying for recognition of section 501 (c)(3) status
Except as provided in subsection (c), an organization organized after October 9, 1969, shall not be treated as an organization described in section 501 (c)(3)—
(1) unless it has given notice to the Secretary in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, that it is applying for recognition of such status, or
(2) for any period before the giving of such notice, if such notice is given after the time prescribed by the Secretary by regulations for giving notice under this subsection.
(b) Presumption that organizations are private foundations
Except as provided in subsection (c), any organization (including an organization in existence on October 9, 1969) which is described in section 501 (c)(3) and which does not notify the Secretary, at such time and in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, that it is not a private foundation shall be presumed to be a private foundation.
(c) Exceptions
(1) Mandatory exceptions
Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply to—
(A) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches,...
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00000508——000-.html
Hope this helps.
(1) Mandatory exceptions
Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply to—
(A) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches,...
Thus we are to understand that churches are automatically "exempt" from the rules above this section. And this means that a church, without ever filing one piece of paper must be regarded by the IRS as non-taxable.
Is that how you read that?
Reading the laws of the state of Indiana, and having spoken with one circuit judge about it, we find that in reality, NO marriage in Indiana is actually "licensed."
The license is a 60 day license only for the officiant, not for the couple getting married, nor for the marriage itself. The license, furthermore, ceases to exist after sixty days from issue.
What does this have to do with incorporation or 501(c)(3), or with church registration in general?
Well, very interestingly, when my daughter was married, and I performed the ceremony, I had researched this carefully, and had spoken to a circuit judge about this issue (casually in the clerks office). The state of Indiana nor the county issuing the license ever investigate the credentials or the qualifications of the one officiating the wedding (e.g. minister; public official)--the one signing the "license," nor do they ever investigate the legitimacy of the church to which the minister claims to belong.
When I asked the judge for clarification, he stated that the state nor the county actually have any authority to determine legitimacy of a church, nor to define what a church is. Further, the credentials of the minister is totally a matter for the church which the government has no authority to legitimize nor de-legitimize.
That might sound confusing to some, but THE POINT IS:
Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the FREE exercise thereof; . . . (emphasis by capitalization is, of course, mine), and thus far, thank the Lord, the state of Indiana doesn't challenge that, even in marriage license law.
This further indicates that no church must register with the state of Indiana to be a church.
“Does this include a local fantasy football club? heh”
Probably.
My understanding ... and I’ve worked for a 501(c)3, but I’m a lawyer ... is that the government does NOT require churches to file as 501(c)3 organizations, because the government actually DOES recognize the “sovereignty of the church,” as Alex would put it.
Filing as a 501(c)3 may, however, be useful to some institutional donors, such as foundations, which are required by their by-laws to give only to churches or 501(c)3 organizations, and which may be considering donating to certain church-affiliated ministries when it may not be obvious that said ministry is a ministry of the church.
In other words: John Doe has a very profitable year, and he wants to give money to charity in the future, but he’ll get taxed on the money unless he donates it before the end of the tax year. So he sets up a tax-free foundation, and gives to it. But it only stays tax-free if it only gives to tax-free charities, so he writes rules that it may only give to churches and 501(c)3 organizations. Meanwhile Pastor Bill’s church sets up a homeless shelter. The executor of John Doe’s foundation needs to be certain that donations to that shelter won’t jeopardize the foundation’s tax status.
In an ideal world, Pastor Bill could simply TELL the executor, “yep, that’s part of my church.” The problem is that Amy works for a food pantry. Her boss works at Pastor Joe’s church and named the food pantry after the church and a lot of her money comes from Pastor Joe’s congregants. And she told John Doe that her food pantry was part of Pastor Joe’s church and it wasn’t. And John Doe had to pay tax penalties because Amy never filed a 501(c)3.
So, Pastor Bill could either show John Doe a whole lot of paperwork establishing that his homeless shelter is a church-run charity, and swamp and confuse some foundation employee. Or he could file a 501(c)3.
I could understand choosing not to file the 501(c)3, and avoid entanglement with government bureaucrats. But making a moral issue of it... nah. Sounds like some Baptist churches just found a good marketing ploy.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.