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1 posted on 12/30/2010 9:11:03 PM PST by jsherk
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To: jsherk

I really like the idea.


2 posted on 12/30/2010 9:21:46 PM PST by GeronL (#7 top poster at CC, friend to all, nicest guy ever, +96/-14, ignored by 1 sockpuppet.. oh & BANNED)
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To: jsherk
The ostensible dilemma of whether a church should seek 501(c)3 tax exemption, and with the agreement silence itself in the area of politics, is a problem created by the unspoken joint assertion that the State has pre-eminence over the Church. When tax-exempt status is something that must be acquired from the State (or can be withheld by it), seeking it becomes an act where the Church agrees with the State's unspoken position of pre-eminence over all churches.

The State will not stop muzzling churches politically, until the State recognizes the pre-eminence of God over the State itself. The State also needs to recognize the co-sovereignty of the Church over the citizenry. Until then, IMO no church should ever seek 501(c)3 status.

3 posted on 12/30/2010 9:27:40 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: jsherk
We had a church like that in our home. We had a collection basket in a private place so that if anyone need money they could take it and if the group decided to give a lump sum to a project we would go to the basket and see how much was there. Money was handled very gently and with great civility. Home fellowship is the best way to go vs organized churchianity.
4 posted on 12/30/2010 9:28:34 PM PST by ladyL
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To: jsherk

501(c)3 is not a requirement. That is only to have the IRS track you as a ‘non-profit’. An “unorganized church” would have absolutely no reason to be filing anything with the IRS. The IRS wouldn’t know it existed for all intents and purposes because it is doing nothing that needs their attention.


5 posted on 12/30/2010 9:29:42 PM PST by GeronL (#7 top poster at CC, friend to all, nicest guy ever, +96/-14, ignored by 1 sockpuppet.. oh & BANNED)
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To: jsherk
No church has ever been required to incorporate or apply for 501(c)(3) status with the IRS.

There are thousands of unincorporated and non-501(c)(3) churches around the country.

These are choices the churches themselves make.

If you are in Texas, your Texas state constitution probably already has a clause in it similar to the US Constitution's First Amendment, and under those provisions, neither the federal or state governments can even define what a church is—it cannot define what YOUR church is, unless you actually define it for them in a church constitution and by-laws, and file these with the secretary of state.

When churches apply for 501(c)(3) or other status with the IRS, then they are actually allowing the IRS to define what your church is, what your church purposes are, what your offices and officers are, etc.

But not one single law anywhere in the United States that we are aware of requires any church to do any of these things at any time.

You are free in the United States to organize a local church or a fellowship of local churches without the first shred of paper ever being filed at any state or federal agency. This is included under the free exercise of religion, free expression, free press, free speech, freedom to assemble, etc.

When churches CHOOSE to incorporate, they must then play by the state's rules. When they CHOOSE to sign that “contract” with the IRS for favors and exemptions, then they are agreeing by their own signature authority to abide by the IRS’ definition of things, their guidelines, their restrictions and limitations, etc. There are no laws requiring either incorporation or contractual agreement with the IRS ever to take place.

No church is required to inform any state government or the federal government that it even exists.

There are fellowships of “NON-REGISTERED” churches: one being the American Coalition of Unregistered Churches (ACUC); another of the fundamentalist Baptist persuasion, the Unregistered Baptist Fellowship (UBF). And there are probably others.

The Unregistered Baptist Fellowship (UBF) has a web site, and you can Google that. Their site has a wide range of published articles on this subject, and they publish a periodical, on-line and in print, called THE TRUMPET. I recommend that (even if you are not Baptist) to go to the UBF site and read the articles there for principles involved in keeping churches unregistered.

We firmly endorse the unregistered church movement in the United States.

In China, Russia, Viet Nam, and other communist and totalitarian countries, churches must be registered with the government. This is not YET the case in the USA.

11 posted on 12/30/2010 9:43:53 PM PST by John Leland 1789 (Grateful.)
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To: jsherk

If Christian Church members were smart, they’d all go underground to worship, give, and whatever else they do. If they can’t see the writing on the wall, then they deserve the fate of their ancestors.


12 posted on 12/30/2010 9:44:42 PM PST by ArchAngel1983 (Arch Angel- on guard / I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-democrat!)
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To: jsherk

I understand you needing to talk to a lawyer to satify yourself.

In my previous dealings with churches and other orgaizations it has always been my understanding that 501(c)3 was not required for organizations that function as a church. A common test was that if the religious organization meet regularly and performed weddings and burial services and they otherwise functioned as a church it is “a church.”

Here is the relevant IRS code stating that they are exempt.(follow to the last line of the copied text under “Mandatory exceptions”.

§ 508. Special rules with respect to section 501 (c)(3) organizations

(a) New organizations must notify Secretary that they are applying for recognition of section 501 (c)(3) status
Except as provided in subsection (c), an organization organized after October 9, 1969, shall not be treated as an organization described in section 501 (c)(3)—
(1) unless it has given notice to the Secretary in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, that it is applying for recognition of such status, or
(2) for any period before the giving of such notice, if such notice is given after the time prescribed by the Secretary by regulations for giving notice under this subsection.
(b) Presumption that organizations are private foundations
Except as provided in subsection (c), any organization (including an organization in existence on October 9, 1969) which is described in section 501 (c)(3) and which does not notify the Secretary, at such time and in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, that it is not a private foundation shall be presumed to be a private foundation.
(c) Exceptions
(1) Mandatory exceptions
Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply to—
(A) churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches,...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00000508——000-.html

Hope this helps.


16 posted on 12/30/2010 10:12:48 PM PST by born2bfree
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To: jsherk
And if you want another interesting topic, one such is the marriage license laws in the various states.

Reading the laws of the state of Indiana, and having spoken with one circuit judge about it, we find that in reality, NO marriage in Indiana is actually "licensed."

The license is a 60 day license only for the officiant, not for the couple getting married, nor for the marriage itself. The license, furthermore, ceases to exist after sixty days from issue.

What does this have to do with incorporation or 501(c)(3), or with church registration in general?

Well, very interestingly, when my daughter was married, and I performed the ceremony, I had researched this carefully, and had spoken to a circuit judge about this issue (casually in the clerks office). The state of Indiana nor the county issuing the license ever investigate the credentials or the qualifications of the one officiating the wedding (e.g. minister; public official)--the one signing the "license," nor do they ever investigate the legitimacy of the church to which the minister claims to belong.

When I asked the judge for clarification, he stated that the state nor the county actually have any authority to determine legitimacy of a church, nor to define what a church is. Further, the credentials of the minister is totally a matter for the church which the government has no authority to legitimize nor de-legitimize.

That might sound confusing to some, but THE POINT IS:

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the FREE exercise thereof; . . . (emphasis by capitalization is, of course, mine), and thus far, thank the Lord, the state of Indiana doesn't challenge that, even in marriage license law.

This further indicates that no church must register with the state of Indiana to be a church.

18 posted on 12/30/2010 10:57:54 PM PST by John Leland 1789 (Grateful.)
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To: jsherk; Alex Murphy

My understanding ... and I’ve worked for a 501(c)3, but I’m a lawyer ... is that the government does NOT require churches to file as 501(c)3 organizations, because the government actually DOES recognize the “sovereignty of the church,” as Alex would put it.

Filing as a 501(c)3 may, however, be useful to some institutional donors, such as foundations, which are required by their by-laws to give only to churches or 501(c)3 organizations, and which may be considering donating to certain church-affiliated ministries when it may not be obvious that said ministry is a ministry of the church.

In other words: John Doe has a very profitable year, and he wants to give money to charity in the future, but he’ll get taxed on the money unless he donates it before the end of the tax year. So he sets up a tax-free foundation, and gives to it. But it only stays tax-free if it only gives to tax-free charities, so he writes rules that it may only give to churches and 501(c)3 organizations. Meanwhile Pastor Bill’s church sets up a homeless shelter. The executor of John Doe’s foundation needs to be certain that donations to that shelter won’t jeopardize the foundation’s tax status.

In an ideal world, Pastor Bill could simply TELL the executor, “yep, that’s part of my church.” The problem is that Amy works for a food pantry. Her boss works at Pastor Joe’s church and named the food pantry after the church and a lot of her money comes from Pastor Joe’s congregants. And she told John Doe that her food pantry was part of Pastor Joe’s church and it wasn’t. And John Doe had to pay tax penalties because Amy never filed a 501(c)3.

So, Pastor Bill could either show John Doe a whole lot of paperwork establishing that his homeless shelter is a church-run charity, and swamp and confuse some foundation employee. Or he could file a 501(c)3.

I could understand choosing not to file the 501(c)3, and avoid entanglement with government bureaucrats. But making a moral issue of it... nah. Sounds like some Baptist churches just found a good marketing ploy.


20 posted on 12/30/2010 11:12:05 PM PST by dangus ("The floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" -- St. John Crysostom ("the Golden-Mouthed"))
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To: jsherk

to own property,

a church association would pretty much have
to incorporate


26 posted on 12/31/2010 12:46:50 AM PST by Talf
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To: jsherk
It only looks complicated. No church has to file as a 501/c3, so any church can say what it wants. The problems arise when daddy warbucks says he will build a new wing if he gets the deduction. If a church preaches that Bill Clinton is an unrepentant sinner, then they could lose that charity deduction and many of their pew warmers. I've been in churches like that and choose to go to a church that preaches what the Spirit leads. Attendance goes up and down, but I don't give for the tax write off. Most mega churches get that way by attracting big donors, not necessarily preaching the Gospel. I have sat through some well known church sermons and not one line from the Bible was ever spoken. A sermon should be more than jokes and moral stories. Whose morals are we talking about?

As far as the food pantry that has spun off from the church, just file for the 501 on the pantry and leave the church out of it. A church can support the pantry but not be connected legally with it. OTOH, you could start a church that preaches abortion and homo marriage and still get the deductions if you file the 501/c3 papers. That's how they have the chicken blood and dope churches and still get considered as a church.

27 posted on 12/31/2010 1:48:18 AM PST by chuckles
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To: jsherk

FREE CHURCH !! ??
i kind of like the idea, most that i’ve gone to pass the plate looking for cash


31 posted on 12/31/2010 6:01:10 AM PST by TheRightGuy (I want MY BAILOUT ... a billion or two should do!)
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To: jsherk

Of course the church cannot do anything that would get the government/IRS on their case.

This includes:

a) A distinct legal existence (which includes one of the four mentioned in paragraph one above), b) A recognized creed and form of worship, c) A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government, d) A formal code of doctrine and discipline, e) A distinct religious history, f) A membership not associated with any other church or denomination, g) An organization of ordained ministers, h) Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study, i) A literature of its own, j) Established places of worship, k) Regular congregations, l) Regular religious services, m) “Sunday schools” for the religious instruction of the young, n) Schools for the preparation of its ministers.
...

Can you believe that in 1978 we traded 16 words of liberty “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.... for IRS State Church status?


38 posted on 09/04/2012 1:45:37 AM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: jsherk
I have had a private Bible study in my home for quite some time. No one is asked for money, but we have brought food to eat in fellowship and I provide everything myself as a homeowner with electricity and heat and cooling. Any multimedia materials can be provided by anyone. In other words, we are in fellowship with each other in one accord.

I live in Texas, so I don't know all other laws, but I can't imagine anyone being required to report to the government for anything related to religious beliefs.

The problem with organized religion seems to come when they talk of going private and people start to withhold tithes because they won't be tax deductible. If that's the reason you go to church, there is something wrong with your doctrine.

If someone in my Bible study asked to be baptized, I have Biblical authority as a Royal Priest to do all the institutions listed in Scripture. I can give Communion also. Marriage would be the only sketchy institution I might get questioned on. The "legal" requirements are that I be a licensed clergy in my state, but that is what we started talking about here about being a government church or not. The state might look at my marriages as people "shacking up", but as long as you are married in the eyes of God, there are no laws against living together without a "license". If it ever becomes a problem, it would be easy enough to get a minister's license on the web.

Today's biggest problem for government churches lies in gay marriage. A member come in, tell the preacher his son wants to marry a man and wants him to preside and use his building. If the preacher refuses, all the weight of the government is on it's way to his front door. I'm not even sure what would happen if they forfeit their 501c3. I suppose it would have the same effect as a black trying to join the KKK. Would the government jump in to force the KKK to take in Jews and blacks?

The government prides itself in the depths of control they can display, but by law, they will always have restraints on their tyranny until the Second Amendment kicks in. The Founders were wise enough in human nature to know the government will always try to control what we think, but that we will always think whatever we wish to think, ergo, the First Amendment was codified. If we choose to believe in a carved stick as God, we are free to believe that because it has always proved very difficult to force someone to a "Come to Jesus Moment". Just as the Chinese meet in homes for Christ, their government is removing crosses from public view but they know they cannot stop what people believe using fear and intimidation.

39 posted on 04/14/2016 11:33:45 AM PDT by chuckles
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