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To: Cronos

I’m not going to invite others to observe and comment. If they want to, that’s fine. I can debate without rounding up a posse of select FRiends to wage a ‘sWORDfight’.

**So, let’s understand this — you say that Jesus was a human who got God’s spirit in Him? That Jesus Christ is not God?**

You took the first sentence (seen below) and left the rest alone as if it wasn’t there; which is an EXPLANATION of the first sentence.

God is Christ, only if you’re referring to the Father dwelling in him. Most notably in John chapters 5, 8, 10, 14, 15, and 16, Jesus Christ spoke a great deal about ‘the Father’ in him, teaching him all things, telling what to say, doing the ‘works’, etc. When speaking of God dwelling in himself, the Christ calls him the Father, not the Holy Ghost.

IN those chapters are some very clear claims by the Christ:

John 5:19 “..the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..” The Man that God SENT (God doesn’t need to be sent anywhere, he’s already omnipresent) received instruction on EVERYTHING. God doesn’t need instruction on anything, for he knows ALL things.

John 5:26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he GIVEN to the SON to have life in himself.” God can’t be given anything he doesn’t already have. God is the giver of life, not the receiver.

John 5:27 “And hath GIVEN him (the SON) AUTHORITY to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.” God is the GIVER of authority, not the receiver.

John 6:37 “All that the Father hath GIVEN me shall come to me..”.

John 8:28 “..as my Father hath TAUGHT me, I speak these things.”

John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice.... My Father, which GAVE them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one (by now you should see the flow of power consistantly coming from the Father to the Son)

John 14 is the ‘heavy iron’ of this revelation of the Godhead. “I am the way, the truth ,and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him. and have SEEN him.......he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS (REMEMBER JOHN 1:1??) that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME(HELLLOOOO?), he doeth the works.” vss 6-10.

The Christ still showed his dual nature of Spirit (the Father), and soul housed in flesh, when he said, “my Father is greater than I”. John 14:28

It pleased the Father that IN him (Christ) should ALL fulness dwell (Col. 1:19). Not just a portion of the Spirit of God dwells in him, but the fulness of God the Father. That’s how the Christ has all power.

Yet the ‘trinity’ logic chooses to slice, dice, and compartmentalize the infinite God. You know, the same God that you don’t call on directly much of the time, using deceased souls as an avenue of reaching God.

I asked Ben to tackle this riddle, how about you giving it a try:
Why is the term ‘God the Father’ found in scripture, but the term ‘God the Holy Ghost’(Spirit) not; and why is Jesus Christ never referred to as ‘God the Son’, but ‘the Son of God’?

Maybe you would like to execute judgement on the following as well:
In nearly every epistle’s greeting, of the churches he helped to found, Paul mentions ‘God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ’. Two things stand out in those greetings: They don’t say ‘and God the Lord Jesus Christ’; and not only is there no ‘and God the Holy Ghost’ phrase, the Holy Ghost is mostly left out of those greeting verses (kinda dissing the ‘third person’ donchathink).

More replies are comming.
(ya know, that cartoon character of a knight in armour, on your homepage, is probably symbolic of the ‘sWORDfight’ you’ve gotten into here. The sword in the drawing is nearly as tall as the knight, and with my extensive steel fabricating background (I’ve made a few swords; ride horses too), I’m estimating it would be very difficult to win a swordfight trying to swing that mass of steel from the back of a horse. A little timing, and a light efficient sword wins handily.

I certainly not claiming that you don’t love God, but your ‘sword’ is too big and bulky, weighted down with all that man-made tradition.


452 posted on 01/02/2011 12:17:48 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel; BenKenobi; bkaycee; boatbums; aMorePerfectUnion; sr4402; Bobsvainbabblings
Firstly, as you can see by the rest of this thread, with the exception of Ben, the rest are folks I am actively debating with.

Secondly, I asked you two things which can help clear things up and ensure we don't talk at cross-purposes:

1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

Is this a standard belief for your Protestant group?

To the first, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that Jesus Christ was a man filled with the spirit of God, not God Himself -- is that correct?

btw, very good verses and interesting argument. I have to go to bed now. will respond tomorrow. thank you and God bless
460 posted on 01/02/2011 2:01:19 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Zuriel
John 5:19 --> this indicates unity of purpose. It doesn't support your non-trinitarian position or my trinitarian position

John 5:26 --> God does not have "life" in the human sense, so "as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath he GIVEN to the SON" must indicate something different than the life that God gave Adam.

John 5:27 -> God gives it to Christ who is God, the One God. Yes, it's confusing I agree.

John 6:37, John 8:28, John 10:27 --> same theme about giving. I do not see this as corroborating or disagreeing with the concept of the Trinity.

John 14:28 does NOT show dual nature -- you can say it shows subordination, but not duality.

It's good to quote from 1 Cor, because in 1 Cor 16 we readFor in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him -- now this is not possible as Jesus was born just 33 years before.

1 Cor 15 says Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Now who else can be the very image of the invisible God but God Himself?

Even the Gospel of John chapter 5 that you quote starts with [17] But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work. [18] Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God

John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. and as you point out John 14 says Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

Note -- if you take the point that the Father is in Jesus, how can Jesus too be in the Father unless both are One? Also, the quote "the words" differs from "in the Beginning was The Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"

To your "riddle" Why is the term ‘God the Father’ found in scripture, but the term ‘God the Holy Ghost’(Spirit) not; and why is Jesus Christ never referred to as ‘God the Son’, but ‘the Son of God’? --> a very good question yet answerable. In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!"). This is not something tossed out lightly.

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

Remember that post the Resurrection, Christ was not just a spirit -- Jesus appeared to the apostles and said, "‘See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’ Then he said, ‘Do you have something there to eat?’ And they handed him a piece of broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before their eyes" (Luke 24:39-43). Here Jesus himself points out that he is more than just a spirit—he has a body, too.

Also, about the Holy Spirit we have John 14:26: "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I have told you." How can an impersonal force teach anyone anything? Does the wind teach? Do gravity or electromagnetism teach? Of course not. This verse makes sense only if "the holy spirit" is really "the Holy Spirit," a divine person.

So, the short-winded answer to your question is the we DO have the phrase as in "go and baptise the nations in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy SPirit" -- God the Father, God the SOn and GOd the Holy SPirit -- a triune God.
484 posted on 01/02/2011 11:35:49 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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