God Never Sinned – He Never Was A Wretch Like Me [Mormonism

There is absolutely nothing about our God’s past that isn’t worthy of our uttermost worship. There is nothing about our God’s past to be ashamed of. There are no Church Archives or First Presidency Vaults or Correlation Committees in heaven that hide away the embarrassing records of God’s past sins.

He has always been pure, and holy, and admirable, and awesome, and utterly worthy of our enjoyment and worship. You can confidently worship God for all who he has been, is, and will be, and all he has ever done.

"Why should I believe that God never sinned?"

Because he testifies of himself, "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me." (Isaiah 43:10). Inspired by the Holy Spirit, David testifies of him, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2) It is also testified of God in worship, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" (Revelation 4:8)

Syllogism 1

Minor premise: A sinner saved by grace cannot properly boast in himself (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Syllogism 2

What Kind of Sins did the Mormon God Once Perhaps Commit?

If God was once perhaps a sinner, only sins which permanently disqualify or disable a person from achieving full Celestial exaltation unto godhood are sins that God the Father absolutely never committed. Or to put it another way, any sin that doesn't permanently disqualify or disable a person from achieving full Celestial exaltation unto godhood is a sin that God the Father may have committed. The only sins which traditional Mormonism says permanently disqualify or disable a person from achieving godhood are murder (some Mormons even limit this to post-temple-covenant murder), blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, and sometimes second-time adultery.

Think about it. What are some sins that you find especially gross and heinous that a person can repent over unto Celestial exaltation and godhood? In other words, what kind of big sins can grace in Mormonism fully cover?

"What if I don't care?"

“If the great things of religion are rightly understood, they will affect the heart. The reason why men are not affected by such infinitely great, important, glorious, and wonderful things, as they often hear and read of, in the word of God, is undoubtedly because they are blind; if they were not so, it would be impossible, and utterly inconsistent with human nature, that their hearts should be otherwise than strongly impressed, and greatly moved by such things.” - Jonathan Edwards

"But our church doesn't have an official position on whether God the Father was a sinner."

That is part of the very problem. Mormonism claims to be the most clear and bright beacon of doctrinal clarity, particularly on things that matter. Yet Mormonism's traditional worldview has fostered confusion on the most important thing in all of reality. Mormonism has historically taught, "As man is God once was, as God is man may be." The traditional and majority Mormon view is that while Jesus is unique and special for obtaining godhood in pre-mortality and for living a mortal life sinlessly, Heavenly Father obtained godhood more like we can: he experienced a mortality replete with sin, yet still progressed unto exaltation and godhood. Some Mormon authors essentially appeal to this "one eternal round" as a point of comfort for members. Whether or not the Mormon institution has an official position on the issue, it still bears responsibility for letting such blasphemy persist among members. Individual Mormons still bear responsibility for acquiescing to the institution's lack of repentance over the issue. "I have never heard a Mormon Church leader teach that God was once a sinner."

They don't have to. What we are talking about here is a natural extension of the traditional Mormon worldview, a worldview that Mormon leaders are responsible for fostering and acquiescing to.

"This doesn't really matter."

Jesus Christ prayed to the Father, "this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3). Eternal life is to know God. Do you want to know God? Then it matters. "This doesn't concern my salvation."

Unrepentant idolaters go to hell. We learn in Revelation 21:8 that the "cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." In the larger context, this is speaking of post-resurrection eternal hell (not the temporary spirit prison of the intermediate state).

"But idolatry only has to do with worshiping statues or pictures, etc."

Idolatry is fundamentally exchanging "the truth about God for a lie" (Romans 1:25). Whether you are worshiping a golden calf, Baal, Zeus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or a god who was perhaps once a sinner, you are an idolater, because the god you worship is not the God of the Bible.

"Since the sinful New Testament saints are called holy, why can't a God who once sinned be called holy?"

The holiness of Christians is far different than God's holiness. God is the Holy of Holies. His holiness is eternal and inherent and intrinsic. It is fundamental to his very existence, and always has been. The holiness of Christians (who still sin) is a redeemed holiness---Christians have been justified and definitively sanctified, set apart for service to God, forgiven, washed, given eternal life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the call to holiness is a call to fight sin and be morally pure. Christians are called to be holy because God is holy. "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16; Leviticus 19:2)

"Shouldn't we respect the power of the atonement by overlooking God's past sins?"

An atonement from a God who never sinned is more powerful than an atonement that covered the past indiscretions of a God who did sin. The whole beauty and power and value of the atonement is based on the fact that it was accomplished by a God who never, ever sinned. The eternally sinless Father sent his eternally sinless Son to be a spotless sacrifice.

An atonement that covered our God's supposed past sins would have to come from another Savior than Jesus Christ. If there was another Savior who atoned for the sins of our Heavenly Father, then he should make himself known so that we can worship him. He is far more worthy of worship than any God who once sinned.

"If sinners cannot become gods worshiped by other spirit children, what then is the purpose of life?"

The purpose of life is embedded in the greatest of all commandments: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30) All things considered, the purpose of life is to enjoy and fear and worship and love and delight in God, ultimately in the God-given context of human community and creation. "If believing that God the Father could have been a sinner is itself such a great sin, can it still be forgiven?"

Yes. John testifies by the Holy Spirit, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) Start singing "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me" in your heart with Christians, and repent of believing in a god who could himself be singing it. God was never a wretch like us, but he loves to save wretches like us.

"I believe that the Father achieved full godhood in pre-mortality and was a sinless savior for another world---he was not a sinner like us."

This is the theory that both God the Father and Jesus Christ belong in a special strain of savior gods. There are multiple problems with holding this view: 1) It has the non-biblical assumption that God the Father had to progress over time unto full godhood. 2) It is a private interpretation that your Church has not endorsed. 3) You are (presumably) still unrepentantly committed to a religion which acqueisces to millions of its members believing that God the Father could have been a sinner. 4) If you still hold to the traditional Mormon view that we can become gods over our own worlds and spirit children, then it follows that your own spirit children would be worshiping you, a being who is not in the special strain of savior gods. So the problem is simply moved from one planet to another. Also of note is Bruce McConkie's thoughts on the issue (as reported by his son):

"KFD 5:1 Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did. Joseph Smith's purpose is to show that the Bible teaches that our Father in Heaven was once mortal, as we are. To do so he takes John 5:19 as a text. Here the Savior said, 'The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' The Prophet then reasons that it is Christ's purpose to lay down his life and take it up again. Thus, if Christ can do only that which his father did, his father must also have been subject to death, he must have died and then taken up his life again as a resurrected being. From this statement of the Prophet, many have attempted to reason that he was saying that his father was also a savior for those of another world and thus that all worlds require their own saviors. The Prophet never taught such a thing and was not alluding to it here. His remarks centered on the doctrine of resurrection, not the salvation of God's endless creations. The Prophet had already clearly taught that the atonement of Christ---which was infinite---embraced all that he had created under the direction of the Father (see commentary on D&C 76:23-24). Responding to those who wanted to argue that there is a special strain of savior gods, Elder Bruce R. McConkie often asked, 'What earthly good could possibly come from teaching such a thing?' " - Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig J. Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration: A Commentary on the Doctrine & Covenants & Other Modern Revelations

"How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through." - Brigham Young, "Sin—The Atonement, Etc.", Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, pp. 70-73, July 10, 1870.

"If only a few rare beings in the infinite family tree are part of this unique royal succession who lived sinlessly on earth in order to be redeemers, then it still remains that sinners become gods just as great & powerful as ours (in fact it’s the norm). So big deal if WE just so happen to be offspring in that rare line of succession in which one son (always the eldest, I guess?) in every ‘litter’ carries the sinless-while-on-earth gene. Right?"

"You act as though the idea of a special strain of savior gods is a minority view among Mormons, when in fact it is the majority view."

That is certainly not the observation I have made after decade of actively interacting with Mormons, nor is it the collective observation of evangelicals who do ministry to Mormons. The above video I have done is at the cultural epicenter of Mormonism, Temple Square. I have non-selectively included every video interview clip that I can. Also, consider that you might be falsely assuming something about the beliefs of fellow Mormons that you have never sufficiently tested. Most Mormons never think to probe fellow members on such an issue in a thoughtful way.

"Why don't you ask more positive questions to present a more charitable view of Mormonism?"

Some Mormons insist that the video should at least pad the main question in the video interviews with questions that yield more positive-sounding, less embarrassing statements from Mormons, and that this would make the video more "charitable". That it somehow isn't fair that I single out the issue of whether Mormons believe God was perhaps a sinner. The simple answer to that is that I do not work for the LDS Church's public relations department, and that exposure of the main issue is the main goal of the video. If Mormonism really does tolerate and even foster the belief that God was perhaps once a sinner, then people need to know about it and consequently abandon Mormonism for Biblical Christianity. If you are really insisting that I put the main issue in a bouquet of rhetorical flowers so as to somehow be grateful for the overall sweet smell, then I would plead with you to reconsider whether or not you are right with God, and whether or not you really know God in Spirit and in truth. Do you care more about the image of Mormonism, or more about true worship of the Almighty God of the universe?

"I have a question or comment. How can I contact you?"

"I want to learn more about the difference between Mormonism and Christianity. What sites do you recommend?"

More Videos

Mormons, did God the Father gain his knowledge of good and evil by eating the forbidden fruit?

Does Moving the God-as-Once-Sinner Problem Solve the Problem?

Was Heavenly Mother Once Perhaps a Sinner?

Debate With Mormon Apologist at General Conference (Did God Perhaps Sin?)

A conversational debate between Aaron Shafovaloff (evangelical) and Robert Vukich (Mormon apologist).

This video is a great example of why it is important to keep probing when a Mormon apologist seems to affirm traditional Christian doctrine.

Robert was very confusing. Toward the beginning he said God was always God and that he never sinned, but then later revealed that the "never" only applies to the timeframe that we know of, and that there may be a timeframe beyond what is in our current view where he had to become a God and where he may have sinned. In fact, Robert went on to say that if "theosis" (as Mormons define it) applies to us forward, then it probably applies to God backward (i.e. God went through theosis).

He also equivocated on the issue of whether God was once a sinner, sometimes insistent that He never sinned, sometimes insistent that no one can really know if God sinned.

Aaron Shafovaloff for Heart for the Lost

Part of the video deals with the God-never-sinned issue as it relates to Mormonism.

Questions for Mormons

* Since Mormonism holds that people who are demon-possessed can be cleansed, forgiven, and exalted unto full godhood, do you believe that God was once perhaps demon-possessed?

* Mormons: What did it mean for the Father to be "Christlike" when he was a mere mortal on another planet? Was he imitating his own Messiah? Was he full of the "light of Christ", i.e. the light of his own particular Messiah? Assuming the Father taught Jesus to be "Christlike", then doesn't that meant that the Father was teaching Jesus to be like another Christ that the Father once submitted to as Savior and Lord? When our Jesus is being "Christlike", doesn't that just mean he is imitating the kind person that potentially billions of other Christs act like on other worlds? If our Jesus is one of potentially billions of other Christs among other worlds, then when we say someone is "Christ-like", doesn't that also mean that he is conforming to a pattern that billions of other Christs have followed?

Who are the Mormon gods? An important question, yet rarely asked.

You wouldn't take up a romantic relationship with an online person you knew nothing about, would you?

Is identity theft only an economic issue -- and not one paralleled in the spiritual dimension?

Some of the headlines below of 2010 Lds FREEPER threads made be abrupt to you -- like the one chosen for this article by Mormonism Research Ministry -- or the one below in the list ("Elohim the Sinner")...

...And yet that's exactly who Mormons identify as their "god" -- a sinful man who was "saved" -- rose up -- and got the God job!

Some of the top 2010 FREEPER threads on Who the Lds gods are:

* Lds View of God contradicts Bible [976 replies]
* Are Mormons Christian? Inquiry into the Church of Latter Day Saints, a peculiarly American Religion [353 replies]
* A literal -- and figurative -- understanding of Adam
* Is the Mormon God the Christian God? - Excerpt from "Analysis of LDS Scholar Arguments...
* Elohim the Sinner
* Heavenly Mother

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Some of them claim being some sort of special witness to you as being supposedly former Mormons. So someone who is an ex-member of any organization would never have an axe to grind or have reason to try to justify their actions by any means? Perhaps not but perhaps so. The LDS Church gains members from other denominations as well as others faiths all the time. This doesn't make them an expert on anything and you certainly won't hear them attacking their forner Church.

Frequently they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address or answer our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you? They often state that these sites provide no answer. They just don't want you looking. It is as simple as that.

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

Thesis: The Nicene Creed and Athenasian Creed Godhead is essentially a God with a multiple personality disorder, and cannot be defined by the New Testament.

Nicene Creed Challenge #42 (answer if you can) ... If you believe that the Nicene Creed which was adopted by the Officials at the Council of Nicea 325AD through inspiration from God ....

....then it makes sense that you should also believe that Church officials should be Celibate ... since that requirement was also passed by the same Officials at the Council of Nicea in 325AD.

So what was it ... the inspired Nicean Officials in 325 got it right on the Creed but wrong on the Celibacy ...Right on both or wrong on both???

If they got it right on the Creed ... doesn’t it make sense that they also got it right on Celibacy? Is your pastor Celibate? If not ... then according to logic ... aren’t you flirting with Heresy?

Just a few thoughts ..... (Before you try to remove the sliver in my eye .... maybe you should remove the beam in your own!)

Dear Mr. Paragonia Defender,

I want to thank you for posting your links over and over and over
and over and over! I found the truth about mormonism in the
links! I am wearing the [sacred] underwear as I type this!

Do not listen to those anti-mormonisms FReepers! They are some
kind of cabal that opposes the restoration of the TRUE CHURCH!!!!

They foolishly oppose those of us who know the deepr things about
the mormonism. THey do this at theirr own peril. When they meet
Joseph Smith our Head Prophet, they won't get into heaven unless
HEsays so. And we know they didn't learn the secret handshakes of
our group! HA! THey will be turned away at the door. Joseph Smith
is a prophet of God. I testify it right now!!!!

THanks to your links I am now a mormonism!!!!!!!

I hope you keep posting hte true links to our official sites
again adn again adn again! Stuff it down their throats. I
wouldn't have learned the deeper truths about mormonisms unless I
read your links!

There are more questions I have for you, Mr. Paragonia.

1. Celestial Sex - I've heard that once I get to the highest
level of mromonisms heaven I will qualify for at least one
mormonisms goddess wife. Right? And once I get to that point, we
can start [you know!] to populate my own planet. On your links I
do not see instructions about preparing for this. There isn't
nothing about getting more than one mormonism goddess wives
either. Have you qualified yet as a mormonism god? How many
goddss wives have you qualified for so far?

2. Tithing - I read on your interweb links I must give tithes. I
told you I am a Canadian. Our Loonie is worth a very lot more
than your dollars. Do I get credit for this? Can I tithe in US
dollars to get a discount? How many Loonies does it take to be a
full mormonisms tithe payer? THe links don't say this. Do I tithe
on gross or net? I read the other day that one of your bishops
pays tithes on NET - not GROSS. Is that cheating? Will the
authorities find out?

3. I keep looking at your links to find out exactly WHAT
mormonisms restored to teh Church. I can't find it. Since the
Church never had polygamy or polytheism or temple rituals or the
magic underwear, how can they be "restorations"? Woudn't this be
NEW stuff?

Very thankfully,

A More Perfect Unions

PS - Mr. PD, please tell me how I can get many mormonisms wives
in eternity and how many good works I must do to get a planet and
become a momronisms god myself!

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right?

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

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