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To: circlecity
Really? of the 10 Commandants, numbers 5-10 deal with how man should relate to man - which of these do the Japanese reject? None. They acknowledge all of these because they intrinsic to every man's heart

Raise a human being from infancy in your back yard, give him water and food and shelter and let him fend for himself. He will lack all social normals of modesty, morals, language, reading and writing skills, etc. He will have no clue where he is, how he came about, or anything we know; he will be a beast.

There is nothing intrinsic in our nature that even approaches the Ten Commandments. Everything we know has to be taught. And the society, as a communal consensus, dictates what is being taught as good and what as bad.

For exmaple, Islam teachs that mercy killing of one's daughter is an "honorable" thing to do for a father. Judaism taught, with the authority of God's own words, that a disrespectful child is to be stoned to death.

The only reason the last five commandments are kept is because it has to do with property and rights, strictly societal values. Commandments 5 to 10 simply reflect universal societal )materialistic) values, and the Japanese share them with us, but they see them as necessary for a functioning society, and not something intrinsically moral any more than the speeding laws. The Japanese society functions on the concept of empowerment, nor intrinsic morality.

Besides, why only the Ten when, as a believer, you must believe that God wrote 613 of them in all and dictated them verbatim to Moses?

How did Christians decide the rest weren't divine enough for them to follow?

It was Christianity, based on Christian morals, which led the fight to abolish slavery in every western society

Oh, rubbish. It was humanism and the Age of Enlightenment that contributed to the elimination of slavery, not Christianity. Christianity had no problems with slavery because it biblically sanctioned.

Polygamy has immoral since Adam and Eve and this was reiterated in the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus. It was always immoral

Really? Then why is is allowed in the Bible (along with slavery)? And where is it "reiterated" in the Ten Commandments? And where did Jesus say one can't have more than one wife?

That's why God finally wiped out Israel and the Jews spent 70 years in Bablylonian captivity

They were worshiping idols (that's the only thing that would make the Old Testament God "lose" it); that's why, not because they were practicing polygamy or slavery.

I do have hard evidence. Although every epistemology must start with certain unprovable axioms, (even empiricism) even these can be corroborated by human experience itself

Epistemology, empiricism? Philosophy doesn't run the world. It's hot air unless it can be tested against the real world, regardless how you "feel" about it.

As for empiricism, human experience, like human memory is about as unreliable as it gets.

The evidence is there for anyone who truly wants to look at and for it

What evidence? Your axiomatic a priori assumptions based on how the world "feels" to you?

133 posted on 12/21/2010 1:05:32 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
"Raise a human being from infancy in your back yard, give him water and food and shelter and let him fend for himself. He will lack all social normals of modesty, morals, language, reading and writing skills, etc. He will have no clue where he is, how he came about, or anything we know; he will be a beast."

That's nonsense. Please provide a single shred of evidence to prove this. Fraiser's "Golden Bough" found this not to be the case over 100 years ago. Basic moral values are innate - a society's socialization process is what works to suppress them. Thus, the muslim example is islamic society teaching to suppress the innate moral prohibition against killing one's sisters. The rest of the world which hasn't suppressed this basic self evident virtue sees this for the evil it is and condemns it, as do many many other muslims who have not relinquished their basic God given morality. If this were not the case nobody would care that muslims slaughter their wives and sisters.

"Besides, why only the Ten when, as a believer, you must believe that God wrote 613 of them in all and dictated them verbatim to Moses? How did Christians decide the rest weren't divine enough for them to follow?"

Because God in the person of Jesus explicitly repealed the ceremonial, dietary and theocratic Mosaic laws. It's called the new covenant. Jesus also retained the moral laws. Have you even read the Bible?

And where did Jesus say one can't have more than one wife?"

You have got to be kidding. Have you even read the Bible? In Matthew 19 Jesus specifically says marriage is one man and one woman. Adultery is always condemned by God in the Bible and never condoned. Further he sees polygamy as a form of adultery. David and Solomon were punished for their adultery/polygamy. And this most certainly was one of the reasons for the Babylonian exile. IN fact, adultery was so repugnant to God that he constantly used it as a metaphor for idolatry. To chase after other God was to go "whoring". He even made Hosea marry a prostitute to personify the adultery/idolatry link. He always condemned adultery and polygamy as the same thing. Again, he people didn't live up to his commands, as shown many times in scripture, and were punished for it.

"Epistemology, empiricism? Philosophy doesn't run the world. It's hot air unless it can be tested against the real world, regardless how you "feel" about it"

Do you even know what these words mean? Epistemology and philosophy are nothing but attempts to logically quantify real world observations. The scientific method is based on the logic which underlies them. Empiricism is the belief that the only things we can know are those thing we can observe and quantify with our five senses - this is very "real world" although not the exclusive real world. Empiricism and human experience are not synonymous, you need to learn the meanings of the terms I am using if you are going to maintain any credibility trying to respond to them.

138 posted on 12/22/2010 4:40:57 AM PST by circlecity
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To: kosta50; circlecity
There is nothing intrinsic in our nature that even approaches the Ten Commandments. Everything we know has to be taught.

I'd be interested in you providing a reference to a society that accepts murder, stealing or lying as a norm. I believe there has been numerous non-Christian studies showing there are basic moral values.

But I am curious. The Eastern Orthodox teaches that homosexuality is sinful. I would assume they believe murder is sinful. Now the question is how did they arrived at this conclusion besides social values? According to you they are taught it by the society which surrounds them. In which case means that it isn't sinful at all except by that society. So then are they teaching something as sinful when it really isn't sin at all? Are you saying that sin is not universal? This would present a problem for Eastern Orthodox.

140 posted on 12/22/2010 1:00:23 PM PST by HarleyD
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