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To: kosta50; circlecity
There is nothing intrinsic in our nature that even approaches the Ten Commandments. Everything we know has to be taught.

I'd be interested in you providing a reference to a society that accepts murder, stealing or lying as a norm. I believe there has been numerous non-Christian studies showing there are basic moral values.

But I am curious. The Eastern Orthodox teaches that homosexuality is sinful. I would assume they believe murder is sinful. Now the question is how did they arrived at this conclusion besides social values? According to you they are taught it by the society which surrounds them. In which case means that it isn't sinful at all except by that society. So then are they teaching something as sinful when it really isn't sin at all? Are you saying that sin is not universal? This would present a problem for Eastern Orthodox.

140 posted on 12/22/2010 1:00:23 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; circlecity
I'd be interested in you providing a reference to a society that accepts murder, stealing or lying as a norm. I believe there has been numerous non-Christian studies showing there are basic moral values

That's like asking for examples of people cutting off their noses to spite their face. It's counter productive. These prohibitions are not based on some "innate moral value" but on the fact that what seems to be innate in organisms is to preserve rather than destroy. Societies formed because they tend to preserve, to protect, where there is strength in numbers, where survival has a higher chance.

Murder, stealing, lying, etc. are all counter productive to the purpose of the society, any society, so it's universal just as the purpose of the society is, because a society doesn't function well when such habits become a norm. In fact the society tends to break up.

So, these prohibitions are not moral in absolute sense, but in a pragmatic, purpose-dependent sense of what is good for the society, the "common good," which supersedes all cultures and religions and is found in even the most primitive human gatherings.

The last five of the Ten Commandments deal with property (and yes wife was a property), and inheritance, all of which stem from social environment because an isolated, lone primitive human being would no concept of stealing or lying or cheating. He would naturally take what he needs, what is out there, without asking whose is it.

But I am curious. The Eastern Orthodox teaches that homosexuality is sinful. I would assume they believe murder is sinful. Now the question is how did they arrived at this conclusion besides social values?

Orthodoxy teaches that homosexuality is a sin because it is a Christian religion. Nut I can see the social roots in that prohibition. The primary purposes of sexuality is to procreate because and homosexuality leads in the opposite direction. The OT speaks of prohibition against two men lying in the wife's bed. Why? Because no family will result from that! It's contrary to its intended purposes.

Murder is likewise counterproductive to the society. A society where murder is commonplace is a nonfucntioning or poorly functioning society and tends to break up.

By codifying these social vices into religious prohibitions was an attempt to make people compliant out of fear, piousness, whatever. If we made speeding laws into moral prohibitions then maybe more people would observe them. :)

Are you saying that sin is not universal? This would present a problem for Eastern Orthodox.

Not only for the Orthodox but for everyone. And no, sin is not universal. Sin is as relative as any other human value. It has no value outside of society.  Genesis doesn't say anything about stealing or incest or adultery because it was meaningless in a society made up of two people.

145 posted on 12/23/2010 7:17:47 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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