Posted on 12/18/2010 6:01:48 PM PST by Gamecock
http://www.cathtruth.com/catholicbible/evervirg.htm
1. The conjunction “until” in Scriptural usage expresses what has occurred up to a certain point, and leaves the future aside. Thus God says in the book of Isaias: “I am till you grow old” (Isaias 46:4). Are we to infer that God would then cease to be? Again, God says to His Divine Son: “Sit Thou on My right hand until I make Thy enemies Thy foot-stool” (Psalm 109:1). Will the Messias, once His enemies are subdued, relinquish His place of honor? St. Matthew’s principal aim was to tell his readers that Christ’s birth was miraculous and that Joseph had no part in the conception of Mary’s child. His statement is confined to this point.
In itself the statement, “He knew her not till she brought forth her first-born Son,” neither proves Mary’s subsequent virginity nor contains an argument against it. Speaking as he does, the Evangelist in no wise affirms that the abstention mentioned by him ceased after the expiration of the time indicated.
To say that the exclusion of an event up to a certain point implies that it occurred afterward, is pure cavil. In fact, one would find it difficult to believe that the sacred writer, after insisting so strongly on Mary’s anterior virginity in the opening verses of the chapter, could suddenly imply that it ceased later on. If Joseph abstained from the use of the union preceding the angel’s message, who could think that after Mary had brought forth the Son of God, he should feel less reverence for the temple of the Trinity?
It’s irrelevant to the issue of Mary being sinless what God has determined concerning children.
Mary was NOT a child when she became pregnant and delivered Jesus. By virtue of the fact that she was capable of conceiving, she was no doubt well past any age of accountability.
Even if those verses only refer to adults, in Jewish culture, adulthood begins at either 12 or 13, before it’s likely that any girl would have been getting pregnant.
Do you mean that the Roman Catholic Church has armies?
Your assertion would be more valid if it was not for the following passages:
19 Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
Mark 6:3 “3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.”
Matthew 1:24-25 - “When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not UNTIL she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.”
As for the reformers or any other “church leader”, they are all human so I will put my faith in Gods’ word.
God Bless
The errors of "brothers and sisters of Jesus" is discussed earlier in this thread, I believe with a link provided. I can look for it - or others - again, if you wish. But I'll focus on another aspect:
Either these passages that you say mean Mary gave birth after Jesus are newly discovered or newly interpreted into something no theologian of the Church - and none of the leaders of the Reformation - saw. Or they were very aware of scripture and held that Mary was ever-virgin.
I think it strains credulity to think these men were unschooled in scripture or interpretation.
No, the scripture never meant Mary gave birth to anyone other than Jesus, the modern innovative exegesis of some notwithstanding.
As for the reformers or any other “church leader”, they are all human so I will put my faith in Gods’ word.
As you are human, you are putting your faith in your interpretation.
For me it is clear that without the Church, we have have no authority but ourselves. Remove the Church and you remove all authority but yourself. And your authority is no greater than any one else's.
This leaves us at an impasse, each his own authority, each claiming truth - which is impossible as this case illustrates. And this shows the wisdom of Our Saviour in establishing His Church as the pillar and foundation of truth.
thank you very much for your courteous reply. God bless...
We WILL judge them genius...not yet...one angel vs. 185,000 men, no contest
Those who have a problem with seeing Mary as “Mother of God” also have a problem with Jesus Christ as both Man and God. To be mother of the flesh of Jesus is to be mother of God, since the two are inseparable by reason of assumption of humanity which God has done for the sake of saving all mortal flesh. What is not assumed is not saved by God, if Jesus was not fully God and fully man in one person we cannot say that God died on the cross for: “being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross(Philippians (RSV) 2:8).
The two are yoked, his humanity and his divinity. What is predicated of the man is predicated of God. This is why the Catholic Church declares Theotokos, see the ecumenical council of Ephesus for more reasons why Catholics believe this is. To have ignorance of this role and title of Mary is to have ignorance of Christ.
I believe in Gods’ authority, hence his word in the Bible.
You seem to choose the word of humans over God, that is your choice.
It started in a.d. 431 when the Council of Ephesus declared that Mary was to be honored as Theotokos, the God-bearer or Mother of God. And we can understand that correctly, since Jesus is, in one person, both man and God. However, the term carried more than a small hint that something inherent in Mary made her enough like God to bear his Son.
Next the Catholic Church declared that Mary was conceived without original sin (Immaculate Conception) and later that she was taken up bodily into heaven immediately upon her death (Assumption). And through the years, the poor, humble virgin mother has been called Immaculate Heart, Virgin of the Golden Heart, Virgin of the Poor, Lady of All Nations, Mother of the World, Queen of Peace—even, though not yet officially, Co-Redemptrix.
How unlike the Mary of Scripture we remembered earlier. Wouldn’t she be embarrassed at the adoration and the myth making? If the next step is taken to officially declare her Co-Redemptrix, there will be no hiding the idolatry behind all the extrabiblical attributes assigned to her.
Will some in that church even know who the “other” Redeemer is supposed to be? Will it matter? Will Christmas become more of a Marymas?
You don’t have to know much Scripture to see what’s wrong here. Consider: When the angels appeared to the shepherds in Bethlehem, they proclaimed the birth of the Savior and not a word about his mother. After the shepherds saw Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, they spread the word about “the child,” not his mother. And the Magi from the east came to worship the infant King, not his mother.
Clearly, when we allow anything or anyone to draw attention away from Jesus, we miss the point of Christmas altogether. Remember for your Christmas: Mary was forever blessed. Jesus is forever the Blesser.
Is there not something to each person that is baptized that makes them more like God? Can there be no reason to suggest that God could have picked anyone to be his mother, yet he chose Mary? More importantly, to get to your problem, can you say that God died on the cross implying that the divine eternal God died on the cross, and say it is so difficult or confusing to say that Mary is the mother of God? Additionally, ignorance of the relationships Christ had on earth and their significance to Him is an ignorance of a facet of His life, perhaps important ones no?
Next the Catholic Church declared that Mary was conceived without original sin (Immaculate Conception) and later that she was taken up bodily into heaven immediately upon her death (Assumption). And through the years, the poor, humble virgin mother has been called Immaculate Heart, Virgin of the Golden Heart, Virgin of the Poor, Lady of All Nations, Mother of the World, Queen of Peace—even, though not yet officially, Co-Redemptrix
Co-redemptrix properly understood is acceptable, given that God gives all people freedom to reject him and his mission, but the "titles" help explain the role Mary has played in the life and death of Christ and to Christians everywhere as a consequence.
Wouldn’t she be embarrassed at the adoration and the myth making?
You don’t have to know much Scripture to see what’s wrong here. Consider: When the angels appeared to the shepherds in Bethlehem, they proclaimed the birth of the Savior and not a word about his mother. After the shepherds saw Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, they spread the word about “the child,” not his mother. And the Magi from the east came to worship the infant King, not his mother.
And yet the angel in Luke proclaimed "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" (Luke (RSV) 1:28)
And Mary came to accept his mission proclaiming
"Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." (Luke (RSV) 1:38)
And Elizabeth who was filled with the Holy Spirit...exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! (Luke (RSV) 1:41-42)
Clearly, when we allow anything or anyone to draw attention away from Jesus, we miss the point of Christmas altogether. Remember for your Christmas: Mary was forever blessed. Jesus is forever the Blesser.
How one understands Christmas has to be placed in context. I cannot understand the incarnation if I knew nothing of being human; I can know little about the heart of Christ if I had not read that He died for all men the death of a slave, on a cross. I can know nothing of life of Jesus as a historical if I could not place Him in history. I could not understand his role as the Priest of sacrifice, if I knew nothing of levitical priests and the holiness of the temple. If I knew nothing of His family, I would know nothing of how He was raised or how He treats those who are members of His family. That is why I say that ignorance of these realities constitutes ignorance of Christ.
And obviously there are different views of what the words of the Bible mean - in this case and in others, many more significant that this.
You seem to choose the word of humans over God, that is your choice.
I certainly see what you mean here.
From my view: I trust God's word in the Bible establishing His Church with authority - His Church, not any man. The Church led by the Holy Spirit, again as He promised as we read in Holy Scripture.
From my view again, it is you who are choosing the words of humans - in this case your own words, or those of other humans whom you have chosen.
We have come, ultimately, to a difference in what the Church is and where the authority for interpreting scripture resides.
Many individual humans arrive at quite different views of the meaning of certain scripture while they believe in God's authority - yet they differ widely, while God does not. It is impossible that God's authority would give truth to contradictory meanings. To continue, one has only his own authority versus that of other human's authority; arguments are never settled, what the "church" believes matters little, members follow whoever's interpretation seems right at the time, then leave for another church. The church becomes fractured, and of little consequence or meaning.
It is so obvious in scripture that this is not the Church of scripture.
That's why scripture talks about the Church so much - that it is led by the Holy Spirit, that it remain one, that it decides and does so with the authority given it by Christ through the apostles - One Holy and Apostolic Church.
Thank you again for your posts. I very much appreciate disagreeing without becoming disagreeable on these threads. May God greatly bless you and yours.
Make glad, O ye righteous; greatly rejoice, O ye heavens;
ye mountains, dance for joy. Christ is born, and like the cherubim the Virgin makes a throne, carrying at her bosom God the Word made flesh.
Shepherds glorify the new-born Child, magi offer the Master gifts.
Angels sing praises, saying: ‘O Lord past understanding, glory to Thee!’
It was the good pleasure of the Father: the Word became flesh, and the Virgin bore God made man.
A star spreads abroad the tidings: the Magi worship, the shepherds stand amazed, and the creation is filled with mighty joy.
O Mother of God, Virgin who hast borne the Saviour, thou hast overthrown the ancient curse of Eve.
For thou hast become the Mother of Him in whom the Father was well pleased, and has carried at thy bosom God the incarnate Word.
We cannot fathom this mystery: but by faith alone we all glorify it, crying with thee and saying:O Lord past all interpretation, glory to Thee!O come, let us sing the praises of the Mother of the Saviour, who after bearing child still remained Virgin.
Rejoice, thou Living City of God the King, in which Christ has dwelt, bringing to pass our salvation.
With Gabriel we sing thy praises; with the shepherds we glorify thee, crying: O Mother of God, intercede for our salvation with Him who took flesh from thee!
We know of what that ancient idolatry consisted, and the worship of Astarte and Baal was nothing like the veneration of the saints and Mary, and the Christian Eucharist is nothing like their sacrifices.
“Our Lord is coming to us and we must await his arrival with a vigilant spirit. We should not be fearful, like people caught doing wrong. We should not be distracted like those who have placed their heart entirely in earthly goods. . . .
. . .This meeting with Our Lord will not come unexpectedly for the Christian who has been on watch. For him He will not come like a thief in the night. There will be no surprises, because there will already have been many meetings with Him each day; meetings in the Sacraments and in ordinary happenings of the day which have been full of love and friendship.”
In Conversation with God, vol I, -Francis Fernandez
But who else might have Catholic-led, Catholic-controlled, or Catholic-influenced armed forces go after in the 15th and 16th centuries? In Europe, the Philippines, and elsewhere?
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