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Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: freformed
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To: Quix; Religion Moderator; metmom
Rabid Clique RC’s and most of the others

have an automatic exemption from the rules that everyone else has to live by.

Me, I take that as a personal attack. Maybe it is just me, but there it is.
701 posted on 12/18/2010 9:04:30 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: narses; Quix
The post Quix keeps repeating is 529 which is in reply to another poster, quoting his post 497 and then diagnosing Catholics generally as being in "denial."

The post itself is not "making it personal" because it could be speaking of any Catholic. But the badgering of you with the same post is indeed making the thread "about" you, which is a form of "making it personal."

But mostly, it is annoying to everyone.

702 posted on 12/18/2010 9:05:53 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: presently no screen name

One at a time I respond to posters. Spam like quix used on this thread is abusive.

If my posts are wrong in response to quix’s odd, repetitive (and until this thread) one at a time spews of color and repetitive cut-n-pastes - well then so are his original posts.

Two different issues, but both open to discussion.

I am absolutely open to quix no longer playing his multi-colored, repetitive posts which would eliminate my responses to same.


703 posted on 12/18/2010 9:06:05 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Religion Moderator; Quix

Any chance the multiple posts can be deleted?


704 posted on 12/18/2010 9:06:56 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Judith Anne
Who gave you that interpretation? Where in scripture does it say that Mary was "Trying to get her son to reveal who He was prematurely"?

Jesus did...

Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Now you know...

705 posted on 12/18/2010 9:07:05 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Turtlepower
How do you know that Mary or any other human that has gone to Heaven can hear your prayer?

Is the body of Christ separated? Does your leg need to hear your arm to be part of one body? Does one part of your body become ill while the other is healthy? Can you have compassion without words?

Do you say the creed: "I believe in the Communion of Saints"?

706 posted on 12/18/2010 9:07:12 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: narses

If you take things personally, then “open” Religion Forum threads will torment you. It is best to IGNORE them altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled “ecumenical” “caucus” “prayer” or “devotional.”


707 posted on 12/18/2010 9:07:33 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: narses; metmom; Quix
I am absolutely open to quix no longer playing his multi-colored, repetitive posts which would eliminate my responses to same.

You want control of his posts?

Quix, I enjoy your posts and seems like competition to be like you is underway.
708 posted on 12/18/2010 9:09:56 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Religion Moderator; Quix

I laugh at such stupid claims, none the less they are clearly personal, especially when they are posted too me.

Can the spam quix spewed be deleted?


709 posted on 12/18/2010 9:11:45 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: narses
but both open to discussion.

There is NOTHING to discuss about your spam - it speaks for itself!
710 posted on 12/18/2010 9:12:13 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Religion Moderator; Quix; narses

**But mostly, it is annoying to everyone.**

Very annoying!

Sometimes silence would be better than reposting all the stuff again and again. Just silence. My opinion only.


711 posted on 12/18/2010 9:12:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses; Quix

To be even-handed, if I deleted all these badgering posts to you I’d have to also delete all your Applewhite posts to Quix. And I have things to do before Sunday so I suggest both of you just forgive and forget and stop tormenting each other.


712 posted on 12/18/2010 9:13:11 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Iscool

Or, “Woman, what is that between me and thee?”

The interpretation you give is what a modern person would interpret using today’s language. Who told you that should be interpreted to mean that “Mary was trying to get her son to reveal who He was prematurely”? There is nothing in the passage to indicate that. It appears that you are assuming (probably wrongly) that Christ Jesus was annoyed with His mother for telling Him that they were out of wine. I sincerely doubt that.


713 posted on 12/18/2010 9:13:30 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: narses
James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

The biblical Mary got to heaven the same way all other Christians get there. John 3;16

I think biblically, Jesus gets top billing for bringing eternal life. John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."

714 posted on 12/18/2010 9:15:18 PM PST by bkaycee
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To: narses
One at a time I respond to posters

One right after another with the same trick pony show. Stop making this thread about you and your spam!
715 posted on 12/18/2010 9:15:53 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Teófilo
I wrote in Latin to make a relevant point. Threats and finger-wagging are quite unnecessary.

There is nothing written in Latin that would make it any more relevant than writing it in English...Just showing off your language skills???

716 posted on 12/18/2010 9:15:59 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Religion Moderator; Quix

“To be even-handed, if I deleted all these badgering posts to you I’d have to also delete all your Applewhite posts to Quix.”

Why? I have never spammed quix like he did here. One post at a time in response to his posts. This thread he went gaga.

OTOH, I am totally open to NOT having his odd, multi colored rants to respond to. Absent his posts, mine end. Hey quix, any chance you will stop?


717 posted on 12/18/2010 9:17:06 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: presently no screen name

ROTFLMAO!


718 posted on 12/18/2010 9:19:09 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Quix; narses
Absent his posts, mine end

CONTROL IN ACTION!!
719 posted on 12/18/2010 9:19:09 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: bkaycee

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.


720 posted on 12/18/2010 9:21:05 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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