Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
THOSE WHO WORSHIP THEM WILL BECOME LIKE THEM...THEY BECOME BLIND JUST AS THE IDOL.
They are conformed into their image since WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS A SPIRITUAL PRACTICE...... People involved in Idolatry cannot hear the word of God they become like the idol that can’t see or hear......AND THIS IS WHY ROME ENCOURAGES IDOLATRY.....IT KEEPS IT’S MEMBERS BLIND TO WHO THEY REALLY ARE...AND WHAT GOD REQUIRES.
Pslms.135:15-18 “ The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they do not speak; eyes they have, but they do not see; They have ears, but they do not hear; nor is there any breath in their mouths. THOSE WHO MAKE THEM ARE LIKE THEM; SO IS EVERYONE WHO TRUSTS IN THEM.”
1 Cor. 12:2,..... “You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.” ...........He does not give any precedence to the biblical way to use idols for the simple reason there is none.
Deut. 12:3-4:.... “And you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place......(Pay attention).....”YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH SUCH THINGS”.
The biblical prohibition against having images for religious purposes and bowing down before them (and God’s abhorrence of this pagan practice) is clearly set forth in the second of the Ten Commandments and in numerous other passages of Scripture.....”Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image.. to bow down unto it.... Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord”.
(Leviticus 26:1; Deuteronomy 27:15). I Cor. 10:19-20 says:....... “What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,.... they sacrifice to devils,.... and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.”
Paul states that the idol is nothing, just as Psalms 115 said. The true spirit behind every idol is a devil. So the Catholic unknowingly is praying to devils as he prays before an image made by men’s hands!
.....”all history to (CATHOLICS) must be revised to prop up the Vatican’s system.”......
Oh there is such huge truth in saying this. But they cannot see for the idolatry they commit. I do believe if they ceased this spiritual practice within the churches and their homes their eyes would be opened to the truth of the catholic church and Romes teachings.
The Lord says they become like the idols they worship...blind. Can’t see. Can’t hear...and we see this all the time on these threads. So if the idolatry would cease entirely the Vatican would fall...they have to keep this and Mary worship on the front burner always.
...”Quixicated”.... tsk tsk tsk! LOL :)
IIRC, I already did.
I found it outrageously
UNBIBLICAL
AND
OUTRAGEOUSLY
PATHETIC heresy.
It’s also to keep them blind...and the vatican knows this which is why they push it so. Remeber the Lord says they become like their idols...blind and can’t hear. Their “spiritual practice” before these idols and in fact even for the Pope and the Vatican, for they do get in a tizzy when the Pope does a drive thru, attests they are fully drenched in idolaty....of idols of the Pope and Rome itself.
at the Catholic school I was forced to attend for a couple of years, I always won the spelling prizes. (cant tell it now, lol) First place was always a plastic statue of Mary with a rosary in her twist-off feet, , second, some saint, like Christopher, and third Jesus with the bleeding heart. I always got the Mary one. What subtle teaching to little kids.
INDEED. WELL PUT.
The oddest thing I witnessed occurred during the singing of the Ava Maria. A group of mourners placed flowers at the feet of a life sized statue of Mary. Pure idol worship, don’t care what the FRoman Catholics call it.
Some Catholics claim that they don’t pray to Mary, but rather only ask her to pray for them. All this is like asking them to pray for you as you would ask a friend. But a person would have to pray to Mary if they are asking her something because she is not physically here. However we do not entrust the world to one or ask protection and guidance from someone who in turn is going to ask God!
A excerpt of the conclusion of the Rosary prayed by millions is:
“Hail, holy Queen [of heaven], Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears.” To Mary they pray........ The most well-known portion of the Rosary and most recited Catholic prayer, repeated millions of times is Catholics praying TO MARY and asking in prayer for her to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”
If this is not praying to Mary then one is not praying to the Father either in the Rosary.
God says to ask Him— not Mary. Only God can answer ones prayer. So it becomes useless to pray to a saint, any saint no matter how great they may be.
Despite the rejections of saying they are praying to Mary or saints the Catholic Church does encourage praying to Mary as these excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church prove:
...“Beginning with Mans unique cooperation with the working of the Holy- Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God”.... (Catechism 2675) They do this claiming they are centering it “on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries.”
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
Holy Immaculate Mary,
help all who are in trouble.
Give courage to the faint-hearted,
console the sad,
heal the infirm,
pray for the people,
intercede for the clergy,
have a special care for nuns;
may all feel,
all enjoy your kind and powerful assistance,
all who now and always render and will render,
you honour,
and will offer you their petitions.
Hear all our prayers, O Mother,
and grant them all.
We are all your children:
Grant the prayers of your children.
Amen forever.
P-Marlowe wrote:
“No I am saying that the “Roman” Catholic Church, in existence since about 600 AD,..”
Really? What odd history purports to break the Universal Church apart in the Seventh Century? Where did you learn that odd “fact”? Bob Jones “University”?
In response s/he asks:
Who’s on your ping list?
How about an answer there to the question regarding your very odd claim regards Church History?
This is just another example of the Vatican keeping control of it's members...beginning with the youth. Idolatry keeps it's members blind to the truth...starting at at infant stage on up it conditions them to these "pacifiers"...like security blankets. Did you ever see a kid's behavior when you attempt to take his pacifier or blanket? Thus they can and do "secure" their doctrines with these items.
“It is the blasphemy that I can’t handle.”
More like the scrutiny of your (unanswered)claims. What’s the problem, cat got your tongue?
“I’m outa here.”
Leaving behind unanswered questions. How Christian.
“Pure idol worship, don’t care what the FRoman Catholics call it.”
BWAHAHAhahahahaa.....
So placing flowers on a parents grave would be “idol worship”?
ROTLMAO, the heretics here get funnier by the post.
Holy Immaculate Mary,
help all who are in trouble.
Give courage to the faint-hearted,
console the sad,
heal the infirm,
pray for the people,
intercede for the clergy,
have a special care for nuns;
may all feel,
all enjoy your kind and powerful assistance,
all who now and always render and will render,
you honour,
and will offer you their petitions.
Hear all our prayers, O Mother,
and grant them all.
We are all your children:
Grant the prayers of your children.
Amen forever.
Holy Immaculate Mary,
help all who are in trouble.
Give courage to the faint-hearted,
console the sad,
heal the infirm,
pray for the people,
intercede for the clergy,
have a special care for nuns;
may all feel,
all enjoy your kind and powerful assistance,
all who now and always render and will render,
you honour,
and will offer you their petitions.
Hear all our prayers, O Mother,
and grant them all.
We are all your children:
Grant the prayers of your children.
Amen forever.
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