Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Funny. Neither do I. Please go learn about what you accuse me of falsely. I believe in the Triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, three persons. As taught in the Scripture.
Chapter 8 of the Westminster Confession of Faith beautifully states the truth of Christ found in the Scripture. Article XIX of the Belgic Confession is nice also.
Hoss
Such a body then would not be the one we have now since it does decay and feel pain, etc.?
“It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body”?
Still a body, not just spirit.
This thread is the equivalent of:
“Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
No matter how many times you tell them the mileage, they don’t have any conception of either time or distance, and the childish powers of intellect can’t comprehend anything other than “I want what I want when I want.”
You must be an awesome father to keep reasoning with the unreasonable.
Briefly, from Wikipedia:
Since mainstream Christians understand Jesus Christ as both fully God and fully human, they call Mary Theotokos to affirm the fullness of God's incarnation. The Council of Ephesus decreed, in opposition to those who denied Mary the title Theotokos ("the one who gives birth to God") but called her Christotokos ("the one who gives birth to Christ"), that Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human.
A spiritual body, i.e., not flesh but spirit as are other heavenly dwellers, the angels. Indeed as Paul says, there are “heavenly bodies”.
Sorry for the format...
Hoss
Did you read what I said I believed? Jesus is fully God and fully man. I don’t believe, as Nestorians do, that there is some sort of disharmony or understandable separation. Jesus is The Word made flesh. I don’t understand it. I believe it. I don’t believe the Roman Catholic Church’s elevation of Mary beyond what is in Scripture.
Hoss
On one level this is as frustrating as arguing the comparison of sunsets with the color blind. Some are truly evil in their obstinacy. But on the other level it is like dealing with retarded children. We have to remind ourselves that it is not their fault they are retarded and answer their questions within the uniqueness of the moment. They may not get it, but then again they just might and it would be a sin against them and Jesus to have thrown away that momentary opportunity.
I must more often say the prayer given us by Reinhold Niebuhr (yes, I know he was a Protestant):
God, grant us the...
Serenity to accept things we cannot change,
Courage to change the things we can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference
Patience for the things that take time
Appreciation for all that we have, and
Tolerance for those with different struggles
Freedom to live beyond the limitations of our past ways, the
Ability to feel your love for us and our love for each other and the
Strength to get up and try again even when we feel it is hopeless.
Mary is not unique in the cooperation and participation on our redemption. St. Augustine described the doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer's sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:
"This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head.... Such is the sacrifice of Christians: "we who are many are one Body in Christ" The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered."
If you can’t say at least that Mary is the Mother of God Incarnate, well, you don’t. To say she’s merely the mother of Christ’s human nature is to assume a division.
NIEBUHR’S PRAYER IS AN ABIDINGLY WONDERFUL, HEALTHY PRAYER.
THX.
That rationalization doesn’t cut it.
“With” is about as heretical as “co-.”
So, Mary was an existential postal person for delivering Christ’s mortal personhood to this sphere.
Even if the postman brings a big check, we don’t usually carry him around on a throne therefrom.
Therefore?
Therefore she was THEREIN blessed.
Period.
Deed done. Job over.
Christ made abundantly clear that John the Baptist was a greater mortal than ALL born of women [logically save Christ, of course].
Further, that those obedient to The Father’s will were equally Christ’s blood relatives just as his mother, father, brothers and sisters were His blood relatives.
There is absolutely NO Biblical, nor historical nor logical justification for elevating Mary WHATSOEVER.
There’s a LOT of Biblical justification for doing absolutely NOTHING of the kind whatsoever.
I’ve posted the relevant Scriptures enough, I’ll not, this time.
you said,
Jesus is fully God and fully man
I say,
AMEN
I understand where you are coming from, but I obviously don't agree with it.
” I simply answered that in this context, the translation into English was flawed. It means only she participated with Jesus in our redemption.”
Uh, no she didn’t. Did she hang on the cross? Did she shed her blood for the remission of our sins? Please, please, please, please, please cite scripture that ascribes to Mary ANY office or authority to participate with Christ in our redemption!!!!
“St. Augustine described the doctrine....”
Based on what scriptural reference(s)?
I can provide some that show that Christ alone is our redeemer and intercessor:
1 Tim. 2:5-7
“5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.”
Hmm. Nothing there about Mary.
Acts 4:11-12
“11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
How about from Jesus’ mouth directly — direct from God:
John 14:6
“6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.””
Mary didn’t participate in ANY way with Christ in order to secure our redemption or salvation. She bore him. She is in no way equal with him, working with him or providing any intercession for us. Sorry.
Hoss
THAT'S FALSE.
. . . BEARING FALSE WITNESS, ACTUALLY.
Believing that Jesus is genuinely God Incarnate has little to nothing to do with the inappropriateness of calling Mary, the Mother of God.
Y'all are bright enough to know that
MOTHER OF GOD
carrys a long list of implications with it.
THAT'S THE ONLY LOGICAL REASON I CAN SEE THAT JUSTIFIES WHY Y'ALL DO IT! Y'ALL SEEM TO RELISH THOSE IMPLICATIONS AND THE CONTRARINESS THEY STAND FOR VIS A VIS THE REST OF CHRISTENDOM.
Y'ALL SEEM TO RELISH THE FACT THAT ALL AND SUNDRY GET INJECTED WITH SUCH IMPLICATIONS EVERY TIME THEY HEAR OR READ THAT MARY IS THE PURPORTED MOTHER OF GOD.
Y'ALL SEEM TO RELISH THE FACT THAT EVERY MENTION OF THAT ELEVATES MARY TO HER PURPORTED "HYPOSTATIC UNION WITH THE TRINITY."
Y'ALL SCARF UP ON THAT BIG TIME AND !!!!DEMAND!!!! THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD JOIN IN SUCH BLASPHEMOUS IDOLTRY.
Oh, SURE, when pinned down, y'all quickly retreat into the farcical noise about how it's techincally true because Jesus is God etc. etc. yada yada yada.
When actually, that has nothing to do with it. Y'all know full well what MOTHER OF GOD IMPLIES and you seem to love forcing it down the world's throat in contrary rebellion against Scripture vis a vis not elevating mortals to God-like status.
It's all the worse given such Scriptures as:
From:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644744/posts?page=143#143
To: narses
ok, tried to look for NT translations from the original Greek. I did find the following from
http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index2.htm
(another ‘bigoted’ source):
Latin Vulgate 6:3 nonne iste est faber filius Mariae frater Iacobi et Ioseph et Iudae et Simonis nonne et sorores eius hic nobiscum sunt et scandalizabantur in illo
King James Version 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
American Standard Version 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.
Bible in Basic English 6:3 Is not this the woodworker, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were bitter against him.
Darby's English Translation 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.
Douay Rheims 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
Noah Webster Bible 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Weymouth New Testament 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, Mary's son, the brother of James and Joses, Jude and Simon? And do not his sisters live here among us?' So they turned angrily away.
World English Bible 6:3 Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?' They were offended by him.
Young's Literal Translation 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?' -- and they were being stumbled at him.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644744/posts?page=25
“. . . a self-appointed leader of the church in the fifth century, this comes up at that time. There’s a discussion about Mary being assumed into heaven. So already this goddess cult has imposed itself on poor Mary. And it was at first considered heretical. There was no evidence for it historically, there’s no evidence for it biblically, obviously. So the earliest appearance of this idea is in a very apocryphal work, an unreliable work like the gospel of Judas and hundreds of others. It was called Transitus Getti Marii (???) and it was in the fifth century it was denounced as a heresy. So when it first showed up in the fifth century, the 400′s, it is denounced as a heresy. But things began to develop over the years in regard to Mary. Praying to Mary arrives in 600…
‘Mother of God’
MacArthur traces the origins of this title to Alexander, the 4th century Bishop of Alexandria:
Goddess worship, the very outset, the Holy Roman Empire comes into existence in the fourth century, early in the century. This mother of God comes in rapidly by the year 431 and the Council of Ephesus and 451, The Council of Chalcedon, this is established. She is to be called the mother of God, this contributes to centuries and centuries and centuries of accumulated deification of Mary. She becomes equal to God. And though the Church tries its best to wiggle out of this, it tries its best to deny this, the truth of the matter is, she really is superior to God and superior to Christ as becomes very evident in what they say and in how they portray her in cathedrals all over the world. She rules in heaven as queen, sovereign, saving, sanctifying, sympathizing, all this power is given to her that belongs only to God.
A book in 1993 had about a thousand appearances of Mary that were documented thirty times in the eighteenth century, 200 times in the nineteenth century and 450 times in the twentieth century. So they are escalating at a rapid rate. Cardinal Meisner claims that Mary brought Christ to Europe from Fatima and one would ask where was he before that if she brought him? She visited a farm in Georgia, an office building in Clearwater, Florida, and a subway wall recently in Mexico City. She comes so often and she comes to the down and out and she comes to the little children, she comes to the peasant people and this validates the fact that she is this loving, sympathetic, merciful, tender-hearted compassionate person … The only person if there is someone really appearing to them is right out of hell. This is demonic, for sure….for sure. But what assurances and what cleverness the demons offer for the deceived and the damned with their hellish counterfeits.
The point is, you go to Mary because Jesus can’t resist Mary. And Mary, because she’s so merciful, can’t resist you. Mary, claims the Church, can persuade God to grant what He otherwise wouldn’t grant …
You’re really banging on steel if you go to God yourself. Go to Mary and He listens to Mary …
You see, Roman Catholicism is pagan goddess worship, completely distracted. God is reinvented as judgmental, harsh. Christ is reinvented as indifferent. Everybody worships Mary …
John Paul II MacArthur tells us of the importance that Mary played in the late pope’s life from his childhood through to his papacy. He reads the congregation excerpts from some of John Paul II’s Marian thoughts and says:
Now that…that’s a pretty bold statement. She is not only the mediatrix of all grace, the channel through which all grace comes, the one to whom we go for everything, but she is even involved in our redemption …
That of those
born of a woman
JOHN THE BAPTIST
WAS THE GREATEST ON EARTH.
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46While he was still speaking to the people, behold,(BR) his mother and his(BS) brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.[a] 48But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 50For(BT) whoever(BU) does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." ESV
Obedience Is Thicker than Blood 46-47While he was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers showed up. They were outside trying to get a message to him. Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and brothers are out here, wanting to speak with you." 48-50Jesus didn't respond directly, but said, "Who do you think my mother and brothers are?" He then stretched out his hand toward his disciples. "Look closely. These are my mother and brothers. Obedience is thicker than blood. The person who obeys my heavenly Father's will is my brother and sister and mother." THE MESSAGE
The True Family of Jesus 46 As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 47 Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.”[g] 48 Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. 50 Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”--NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
. . . obviously, other than Christ Himself . . .
I guess y'all think Mary was hatched under a sacred rock--in Rome?
The Biblical record supports nothing to little more, imho.
After doing a search (which may not be totally complete), I can only find where others are telling me I said what you’re saying.
Sorry. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. I’ve been accused of being a Nestorian (falsely in fact); Jesus, the Second Person of the Godhead existed always with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Mary bore Jesus. She’s not the Queen of Heaven, she’s not a co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix, or co- anything.
Sorry. Just the way it is.
Hoss
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