Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
“We don’t tell Roman Catholics what they believe.”
Snort. Laugh. Even you cannot believe THAT canard “Doctor”.
No reformed Christian believes Christ is “two separate persons in one body,” per the definition you provided.
Neither does any Reformed Christian believe Mary was sinless, the “Queen of the Universe,” the “Dispensatrix of all Grace,” nor the “Mother of all mankind.”
You lose.
I told you what I believe. Just as Roman Catholics tell us what they believe every day on this forum. And much of what they tell us is anti-Scriptural lies, i.e. “Mary was sinless.”
As far as I can tell it is only a few wretched Calvinists who believe in "another Christ" and a "Co-redemptrix", not as actual entities, but as fallacious deceptions created by them to abuse the devout. As for works-based salvation you have to take that argument up with God:
James 2:14-26
Faith and Works
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
ROTFLMAO!
No, the Roman Catholic catechism, Roman Catholic popes and various Roman Catholics apologetics teach that the RC priestcraft is “another Christ” and that Mary is a “co-Redeemer.”
And it’s good to see you posting Scripture, but now your job is to understand Scripture, because the verses from James you posted do not support a works-based salvation. James is saying that true faith will always produce good fruit by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Keep reading the Bible and praying for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes and ears to the truth of CHRIST ALONE.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
Yeah, the idea that “Mary is sinless” is pretty hilarious.
Dangerous, too.
“then you fall apart”.
Rich.
Merry Christmas
Hoss
Thus the Virgin Mary remains in the middle between Christ and humankind. For in the very moment he was conceived and lived, he was full of grace. All other human beings are without grace, both in the first and second conception. But the Virgin Mary, though without grace in the first conception, was full of grace in the second . . . . whereas other human beings are conceived in sin, in soul as well as in body, and Christ was conceived without sin in soul as well as in body, the Virgin Mary was conceived in body without grace but in soul full of grace.
(in The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary, Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue VIII, edited by H. George Anderson, J. Francis Stafford, Joseph A. Burgess, Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress Press, 1992, p. 238. He gives further references in his footnote 22 on page 381: “Sermon on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (December 8?) 1527. Festival Postil (Festpostille). WA 17/2:288.17-34.”)
In the 13 years, I encountered a few of the crazies but they were in the minority. I can’t say I regret going to catholic school but, also, there wasn’t an option B. All my siblings and cousins went to catholic school. It was just the way it was. I never questioned it because it never bothered me - I was fine there.
My HS was a college prep school and because of the distance from our home, I asked if I could go to the closer HS that my sister and brother (twins) went to. My parents believed I was in the right school. That was that.
Was it strict on the ridiculous side, (not studies but dumb rules that had no redeeming value) yeah, but I think it prepared for the liberals of the world. ;) So, all in all, I have no regret going to catholic school and believe that I got an excellent education. You had something to compare it you and I didn’t. It’s all I knew. My children went to catholic school, also. ;)
Do you really believe that you can make this stuff up out of whole cloth? You cannot provide a single citation from the Catechism for either "another Christ" or a "co-redeemer" because they don't exist. Neither has any Pope ever declared Mary a co-redeemer in contradiction to the Catechism. And your fallacious repetition of the alter Chisti meaning the same as the direct translation is simply pathetic. Frankly, I thought the use of the term "Priestcraft" would have died with Alberto Rivera.
“Foul disease” shows both loathsome and disgusting and venereal disease. It is not in the same league as suggesting other Freepers need an exorcism.
I didn’t ask for the translation of that one. It falls under the commonly know phrases that are exempt as per the RM. If you look at the post number to which I was referring, you’ll see that clearly enough.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=746#746
RM: “Unless the word or phrase, sentence or paragraph - is very common (e.g. adios) then it must be translated on thread.”
I’m not asking because of any knowledge of Latin on my part, but because I see there a violation of the guidelines that RM has established. The RM has decreed that any foreign phrases that are not very common must be translated. The translations were not forthcoming.
Why are you guys not translating as instructed by the RM?
Do you hear what I hear . . . la la la
Vain repetitious prayers . . . la la la
Why?
You see the arrogant perverse haughty !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaque stuff of at least the Rabid Clique RC’s hereon 24/7/365
and you wonder why?
Perhaps you’re tired.
LOL.
The term *Mother of God* is at the very least deceitful.
Mother of Jesus is accurate and correct and gives no false impressions about who she is and what her role in God’s plan of redemption is.
But that clearly is the problem. Catholics have, over the centuries, elevated her and given her characteristics and accolades that properly belong to only God Himself. It gives the clear impression that the whole end of this Mary stuff is to elevate her to godhood. What better way to do that than claim that she’s God’s mother.
That elevates Mary to God’s place and diminishes God to the role of a lesser being than Mary.
She gave birth to Jesus, the Second person of the Trinity.
Claiming she is the mother of God gives the false impression that His nature came from her. Jesus divine nature comes from the Father, not Mary.
The term *Mother of God* is at the very least deceitful.
Mother of Jesus is accurate and correct and gives no false impressions about who she is and what her role in God’s plan of redemption is.
But that clearly is the problem. Catholics have, over the centuries, elevated her and given her characteristics and accolades that properly belong to only God Himself. It gives the clear impression that the whole end of this Mary stuff is to elevate her to godhood. What better way to do that than claim that she’s God’s mother.
That elevates Mary to God’s place and diminishes God to the role of a lesser being than Mary.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
I'm not the one who failed to comply to the RM's instructions, thus I am not the one stirring up trouble.
It's irrelevant that *many* of you recognize the terms. That is not what was specified.
Since they are not of common usage, as in *adios* or Mea culpa* according the the RM's guidelines, they MUST be translated.
Considering it was your exorcism post that started it all, it's pretty ironic that you would accuse someone of trying to stir up trouble.
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