Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Why? It’s not me who has the problem with latin.
"(Jesus Christ) being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when He had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" -- Hebrews 1:3
"...when He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins..."
When I asked you if there was a problem with the Latin phrase I post, you replied “Sure.”
If you meant something else, you should have written something else.
I was agreeing with you.
You couldn't have possibly agreed with me because I made no statement that I did, or did not, believe that people's minds could be changed.
My statement to you thus stands.
What a joy you are to me! God Bless you and keep you now and through the new year.
Merry Christmas!
Hard to believe.
That “proclamation by your pope” confirms that John Paul II taught that Mary should be “worshiped.”
And from that foul disease of a proposition, all papist idolatry flows.
There are only two classes of human beings in Roman Catholicism — the elevated “anointed” class made up of “another Christ” and a “co-Redeemer,” and all the rest of us peons “working” our way to heaven.
Just like any top-down tyranny or monarchical dictatorship.
You left off the "I agree" part of the post in question.
I never stated that I did, or did not, believe opinions could be changed.
BIG difference.
It most certainly is.
>>Oh gee, what do we have hear<<
I think you meant, “what do we have here”
A Blessed Christmas and a wonderful New Year to you, FRiend!
May you and yours be given all the kindness that your show to others.
Ben,
“Scripture traditionally records that this office is passed on from one officeholder to the next.”
Where in scripture???
“The fair analysis is that you interpret the evidence in a different fashion, not that the evidence is lacking.”
You can’t interpret something that doesn’t exist; that’s the Roman Catholic Church’s problem!
““So blessedness=sinlessness?”
Never said this was so. ‘All generations shall call you blessed’, is different.”
Really... let me remind you:
Post 1,091:
“As for Mary’s sinlessness, ‘all generations hereafter will call you blessed.’ That’s a pretty outstanding claim not else repeated in scripture.”
What’s the operative here? Seems like “will call you blessed.” So, if not that, what? Please clarify.
Anything on the apology?
Hoss
There are only two classes of human beings in the OPC - the "elect" and the "not elect." Anyone who is "not elect" -- whom some posters believe themselves able to discern -- is going to hell, predestined from all eternity.
>>very nice....let’s see how the anti marian crowd twists those words of the very leaders they themselves credit with ‘restoring’ the ‘true’ faith....<<
There is one of the big differences between Catholics and Protestants, I think. All men can be incorrect in some of their beliefs, even “leaders”. Protestants see leaders as people, and fallible. Even Luther. ;)
Protestants don’t really have any “holy stuff” either. A building is a building, a cup is a cup. It becomes holy via the Lord’s presence.
Actually, no. This is from post 1100, from you:
“I agree that the minds of some posters will never be swayed by Scripture, reason or logic.
Don’t attempt to read my mind, Dr. - it’s against the rules.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=1061#1061";
No “I agree” in there. You stated that she was trying to read you mind. That’s what I was referencing.
Hoss
BK: “We as Catholics aren’t bound to accept any of your citation. We are, however bound to accept the proclamation from the Pope. So until you have Papal evidence to confirm your statement, you are wasting your time. Except of course, to preach to the choir.”
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Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
Doc, my sincere apologies. “She” and “her” from now on! :D
Thanks, Netmilsmom
Wow. Thank God for the evidence of the written word...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=1070#1070
NL: "Do you seriously believe that the rules apply and are applied equally to all?" WRIGHTWINGS: As much as I believe that anybody on these threads is going to be able to change anyone's mind. 1,070 posted on Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:19:25 PM by WrightWings To: Natural Law
Thus we're left with one of two possible meanings to your post since you drew parity between Natural Law's comment and your own...
1) You seriously believe the rules DO apply and ARE applied equally to all, and therefore you DO believe peoples' minds on these threads CAN be changed.
2) You seriously do NOT believe the rules apply NOR are applied equally to all, and therefore you do NOT believe peoples' minds on these threads can be changed.
Which is it?
Is your non-FR name “Judith Anne?”
>>If Jesus emerged from a sealed tomb, and passed through closed doors, surely he could pass through Mary’s womb without breaking her hymen and causing her pain.<<
Ok, now these guys are just getting stupid. Yes, I mean stupid. The above quote is what is known as idle speculation, and with no real purpose, other than to try to prop up some theory they may have. A theory, I might add, that is irrelevant to Jesus saving grace.
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