Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
AMEN! THX THX.
EXCELLENT.
Archiving. Thx.
Keep working on it ... you’ll get it eventually.
SnakeDoc
There’s no verse that documents a sin that Mary committed, unlike the Apostles, particularly Paul who goes out of his way to make us all understand the depth of his sins. All that we have to go on, is what the Angel says to Mary, that “all generations will call you blessed”, something that is not said of anyone else in Scripture. This to me is significant. Scripture doesn’t pull any punches at demonstrating the fallenness of the disciples, and yet it goes out of it’s way to highlight the blessedness of Mary.
Luke 2:48 His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You."
False accusation? is that bad? Lack of Faith?
Mark 3:20 Then he went home, and the crowd gathered again, so that they could not even eat. 21 And when his FAMILY heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind." Mark 3:31 Then Jesus MOTHER and brothers ARRIVED, standing outside they sent someone in to call him.
Would thinking Jesus was insane and wanting to throw a net overy be a sin by Mary?
And the purpose of you sending me a post in Polish would be - just because you can? ala clinton (PC press #2 for Polish)
Catholicism aligns itself with liberalism is so many ways.
You obviously weren't the beneficiary of a Catholic education. You don't seem to comprehend the meanings of liberal and conservative.
Conservative is an adjective meaning disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change. By definition it is the very antithesis of "reformed" and synonymous with liberal.
You obviously weren't the beneficiary of a Catholic education. You don't seem to comprehend the meanings of liberal and conservative.
Conservative is an adjective meaning disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change. By definition it is the very antithesis of "reformed" which by the way is synonymous with liberal.
Interesting. A mother’s concern for her child is sinful? I didn’t think that someone would try to step up and argue this with Mary.
Secondly, it says his family believed that he was out of his mind. Doesn’t say Mary. Paul readily admits where he had fallen short. Same with Peter.
“Roman Catholic authorities admit this fact.”
Seeing as you’ve accused us of being slaves to the Pope, I should think you’d be looking for Papal evidence.
Ott’s no more of an authority than Duffy. He’s got an opinion. Fact of the matter is that the Pope and his authority argues that the evidence originated at Chalcedon when brought forth by then bishop Juvenal.
“Why not, is the Bishop of Jerusalem also infallible?”
Simply the fact that he was 300 years removed, not 2000 years removed. Big difference.
“Sorry, the facts are that there is 300 + years of silence, then a myth first appears from apochryphal writings.”
Knowing something about the history of Jerusalem, it makes sense. There wasn’t a bishop in Jerusalem per se, until Juvenal. The city was destroyed twice, once in 70 AD, and then again after Bar Kochba. That her tomb and the significance of her tomb would be lost to the church in the interim isn’t surprising.
Especially given the fact that even the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem had also been lost over that period, rediscovered and re-excavated shortly after Constantine’s Edict of Milan.
“Same with Mary’s supposed sinlessness, Peter as the first pope”
Which is why I’ve argued that Matthew affirms Christ gave Peter the following:
1, authority over the other Apostles,
2, the power to bind and loose.
To be fair you would argue that your intepretation of scripture varies, not that we have not cited biblical evidence in favour.
As for Mary’s sinlessness, ‘all generations hereafter will call you blessed.’ That’s a pretty outstanding claim not else repeated in scripture.
>>And the purpose of you sending me a post in Polish would be - just because you can? ala clinton (PC press #2 for Polish)<<
I know you understand that although a post has your name on the top of it, it is open for all FReepers to read. It is not just for you, but rather for the context of the discussion. Other readers are here too and reading along. They have the same opportuntiy to post. If it were a private discussion, it would be in FReepmail.
Therefore, if I write in Polish as well as English, it may have a fuller meaning to those who read both sets of words.
Perhaps you do not speak a second language. The nuance of that language, although the meaning may be close, the nuance can make it different, even clearer.
If you are saying that I align with liberalism because I think that it’s childish to demand that someone not write in another language, have at it. I personally don’t care what you believe. I was trying to kindly help you out with the rules of the Religion Forum. There is no need to insult me for it, but if it makes you feel better in this joyous season, then Merry Christmas!
Interesting. A mother’s concern for her child is sinful? I didn’t think that someone would try to step up and argue this with Mary.
While I am sure she was out of her mind with worry (itself a sin?, lack of trust), the plain text itself is certainly accusative. You are also looking at the text and importing a theology unknown for 600 years after the events.
Secondly, it says his family believed that he was out of his mind. Doesn’t say Mary.
It says the FAMILY went to get him .....and when His MOTHER and BROTHERS arrived, etc.... Mothers are usually included as family members in all conotations that I am aware of.
You must think it quite a large mistake by the Holy Spirit in not clarifying this implication.
It would make ME feel better in this joyous season to wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Last night, went with some conservative Methodist relatives to a Christmas concert at their beautiful church. Large pipe organ, bell choir, brass group, percussion group, 170 voice church choir, and the ENTIRE CONGREGATION singing and playing “JOY TO THE WORLD” five verses at the end!
Everyone was crying and laughing. So beautiful! And then, cookies. ;-D
And to you!
The concert sounds wonderful!!!
I’m still planning for our Nativity Play. We have 15 Shepherds this year but five of them are girls! We’ve only had my own girls as “Shepherd Wives” before this. Because we have a new director, we are tweaking our props. Lots of Webkins sheep and my older daughter is carrying a pot with a chicken in it.
We have an Archangel Michael, with a sword and the whole lot. The Archangel Mom and I were talking about adding two more boys, Raphael and Gabriel. Now it’s getting the okay and buying props.
We laughed how Gabriel could hold a fax machine and Raphael an AK-47 but I think the staff, scroll and trumpet are more realistic.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=129#129
Wow. So sorry. I guess I over-estimated RC apologists' knowledge of a fairly-common phrase...
"Post tenebras lux"
"After darkness, light."
Now you know.
I agree that the minds of some posters will never be swayed by Scripture, reason or logic.
But I know of several FReepers who have come into the light of the truth via these threads. Such is the power of God's word.
As God wills.
Knowing how much you have posted about following the posting rules on here, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of that one.
Don't attempt to read my mind, Dr. - it's against the rules.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=1061#1061
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