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To: topcat54; Gamecock
As I said
1. We Christians here in Christ's Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church believe that Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Our God saved Mary, His created being, His mother.

2. We believe that Mary being a daughter of Adam and Eve would have been faithed to have the same "stain" from Original Sin. you believe in that "stain", too, correct?

3. Mary in the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) when she is bearing Jesus Christ -- NOTE: Jesus has not been born yet, He has not yet (in our space-time) been the sacrifice on the Cross she says my spirit rejoices in God, my right NOW Saviour

4. Note: Mary does not say "my spirit rejoices in God, my future Saviour", but she says "in Deo salvatore meo,", "my current Saviour",

5. Mary clearly indicates that God (Jesus Christ) has already saved her. How is that possible if he has not yet been on the Cross or even been born yet?

6. This very clearly indicates that Mary needed a savior too and her Savior saved Her somehow even before He was born
I take it that you agree with this so far?

7. The only conclusion is that somehow before His work on the Cross, Christ already saved his created being, His mother, mary.
Do you agree with this? Since Mary sings a praise of God who IS her savior (and Christ was still in her womb at that point in time, yet had already saved her)

8. The logical conclusion is He protected her from sin and in fact "saved" her from sin even before He was born.
Since God, our Lord Jesus Christ had already saved her, yet we know that the salvific sacrifice on the Cross had not yet occured, and we know that sinful man is born with the stain of sin, the only logical conclusion is that HE protected her from sin, He in fact "saved" His mother, His created being.

Saints of the OT had not yet been saved at that point in time when Mary was carrying Christ in the womb -- remember that there was the limbo of the Fathers and Christ opened the gates of heaven for the dead. "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." -- Abraham was happy to see Christ's day of sacrifice on the cross as the OT saints were saved at that point, yet Mary called Christ her Savior BEFORE that day, when He was still in her womb, He was already her Savior, He had ALREADY saved her.

This is quite different from the OT saints who were saved by the salvific act on the Cross -- they would call Him their future savior at the point that He was still in His mother's womb. Yet Mary called Him her current, RIGHT NOW, Savior
348 posted on 12/16/2010 4:16:24 PM PST by Cronos (Et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis (W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie))
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To: Cronos; Gamecock
I take it that you agree with this so far?

You take it wrong. There's lots of error leading up to the one I pointed out.

1. We say that creed too every Sunday.

2. Mary was born with original sin, just like the rest of us. The Bible teaches that only Christ was free of sin at His birth.

3. OK, so? How is Mary testimony materially different than what we read in the rest of the NT, “He is the Savior of the body.” (Eph. 5:23), or when Thomas declares, “My Lord and My God.”

4. Ditto 3.

5. I think I answered that one, along with the rest. Mary is in no different state than Zacharias, Elizabeth, Simeon, John the Baptist, etc.

This is quite different from the OT saints who were saved by the salvific act on the Cross

And I fail to see the logic that gets you there, as I said before. You response here isn't any better.

366 posted on 12/16/2010 5:38:29 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Cronos; Gamecock
Abraham was happy to see Christ's day of sacrifice on the cross as the OT saints were saved at that point,

But John 8 doesn't express it that way. Let's look again.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.
And he saw it (past tense) and was glad. Doesn't say anything specific about the cross. In fact, it says nothing more or less than what Mary declares.

For there Is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Was Jesus born a Savior, or did He become at Savior at some later time?

the only logical conclusion is that HE protected her from sin, He in fact "saved" His mother, His created being.

Don't confuse logic with superstition. There's nothing logical about your set of propositions and how they allegedly fit togther.

369 posted on 12/16/2010 5:54:51 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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