Posted on 12/10/2010 9:41:02 AM PST by topcat54
There are quite a number of refutations of his "Why all self respecting Calvinists should be Dispensationalists" screed, so much so that I have had to revisit my opinion of the integrity of John MacArthur - is his pride bigger than his zeal for truth?
Dispensationalism is a hard meme to shake off. For those that have it, the church/Israel distinction is low level and axiomatic, and can't be questioned. It is to Johnny Mac's credit that he refers to himself as a "leaky dispensationalist". The leakier, the better.
Uh no, that had nothing to do with it AT ALL.
Face it, the majority of Israel are not even orthodox Jews; they are secularists. The Israeli I served with in the U.S. Army has tons of friends in the IDF. He told me that most of the young people hate religion.
You are clueless. 30 years ago, that was true but not anymore. Your information is dated. This is part of G-ds plan by the way. The religous Jews are out birthing the seculars and already the religous are a majority in the IDF. Within a generation, the majority of Jews in Israel will be religous and will control the government. G-d has alrady foreordained how this will end. The Jewish people will return and follow G-ds commands, ordinances, statutes etc. The Temple WILL be rebuilt, Sin sacrfices ARE returning, the preisthood and Law will be taught from Zion.
my Israeli friend claims
Your Israeli friend is an idiot and wrong. I am sure I have a lot more Israeli friends than you and they would laught at that guy.
But the NT says that this was fulfilled at the time of Christ. John 19:37, cf. Luke 6:25.
d. It is to Johnny Mac's credit that he refers to himself as a "leaky dispensationalist". The leakier, the better.
I surely hope so, it was his book "The Gospel According to Jesus" that led me out of the Free Will American Religion. Its a debt I can never repay.
Dispensationalism sans Jesus.
Huh? Temple...Sacrifices...Priesthood...Law? Doesnt sound like Jezuz to me.
This is a mistranlation of the Hebrew. It doesnt say this at all.
Here is what it really says: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
You need to go back in that Chapter and put verse 10 into context.
Verse 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
That wasn’t the situation when Jesus was crucified.
Verse 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Generally when it says “in that day” it’s talking about the end times. “All that burden themselves with it shall be cut into pieces” didn’t happen when Jesus was crucified.
Verse 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Again, “in that day”. “Every horse with astonishment and his rider with madness”. Clearly talking about a time not like the time of Jesus crucifixion.
Now continue to verse 10 and you can see that verse 10 is not talking about any time in history.
“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (2 Pet 3:3-4).
That translation only tends to reinforce the future understanding of the passage. Would I be correct in that?
The NT is the infallible interpreter of the OT prophecies regarding Jesus Christ. John 19 tells us that Zechariah 12 has been fulfilled.
For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced."Is it your claim that the Jews did not look upon Jesus when He hung on the cross? Or do you feel the need to insert an unspecified gap somewhere in Zech. 12?
I realize it does not fit with the literalist theories, but the facts are what they are.
Future from whose perspective? Certainly it was future in that it spoke of Messiah Jesus. If you deny that it speaks of Jesus then you can apply it to any age and anything you wish.
You didn’t even read the post or the Chapter to put verse 10 within the context of the rest of the Chapter.
I don't get this claim. How can it be more appropriate for a modern age when the vast majority of people, especially the vast majority of armies, don't ride horses. Why is a prophecy against riders on horses significant today? Of course it's not. Another reason why the futurist's interpretation doesn't make sense in many cases.
Exactly. Dispensationalists take all that faded old covenant stuff and just insert Jesus at some point.
Translation: you didn't read it “literally” and you didn't ignore John 19 indicating the fulfillment.
I believe it has come time agree that we will not agree. One day, I believe soon, we will know. It will be a fascinating next few years nonetheless.
You didn't answer my earlier questions:
What do these verses from Isaiah 17 mean:"The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,"
"In that day it shall come to pass That the glory of Jacob will wane, And the fatness of his flesh grow lean."
What is the “fortress of Ephraim” in modern terms? What is the “glory of Jacob”, and how will it's waning be manifest?
"I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords." (Eze. 38)
Who are the armies of Gog, and how do you see this being played out? Do you expect to see armies on horseback with swords and spears riding against modern Israel in the near future?
I'm still trying to figure out what it is that supposed to recommend your view for serious consideration. You seem to have a hard time handling the hard questions.
Wow... yeah, I can really see the huge distinction there...
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