you wrote:
“Heh. Nothing wrong has ever been done by the Catholic church right?”
Doctrinally? No. In other actions, yes. Ending the general use of the old Mass was a mistake, for instance.
“Civil authorities burned the heretics at the stake, the church just approved it.”
True.
“Donations paid for indulgences,”
False. Nothing paid for indulgences. They weren’t sold. Something that isn’t sold, isn’t “paid for.” This is shown to be true by the fact that Albrecht of Mainz’ advisory letter on indulgence preaching expects the poor to be given the indulgence without any donation at all. People who give things away for free are not selling them.
“and Chaucer didn’t understand it when he lampooned the practice and the millions that left the Catholic faith just didn’t understand the distinction.”
What Chaucer satirized is irrelevant. He also satirized marriage. That doesn’t mean he didn’t believe in marriage.
“Such fools. Popes were having orgies in that era and riding about on white elephants.”
Alexander VI may have been involved in orgies - the stories may also be false. Leo X was given an elephant by the king of Portugal. Did either man - no matter how flawed they were as men - teach a single false doctrine? No.
“Rogue priests abused children in our own era, the Church just covered it up.”
Again, false. Some bishops covered it up in their dioceses. Others did not. The Church didn’t cover up anything.
“Or were it rogue bishops and cardinals that were covering it up? You’ve read scholarly articles!”
Some bishops did bad things while others didn’t - that’s what the evidence clearly shows. I don’t blame the Church for what a tiny proportion of its members have done. You apparently do, and that’s probably because of bigotry.
“That’s why I used the phrase Churchianity. You are so wrapped up in your church your faith is threatened by just recognizing historical fact. Christ should be the focus, not the denomination.”
I’ve never been in a denomination. My faith can never be threatened by any fact whatsoever because all of them merely bolster my faith in Christ and His Church. Pointing out the failings of mere men is no threat to my faith whatsoever. None of those failings sullies the Church itself however. Unlike you I know what the Church is - it is the Bride of Christ, unspotted and unwrinkled.
“You view apologetics as defending your church, not Christ.”
Are you admitting that you’re attacking Christ? I believe you are attacking Christ when you attack His Church for they are one. The Church is Christ’s Body. The Church is Christ’s Bride. Thus, when you defend the Church, you defend Christ. You are tacitly admitting that you are an enemy of Christ. I’m not really surprised.
“You view insult and denial of fact as techniques in apologetics. You offer no facts!”
I have offered facts and you have never been able to deal with them. You even fell flat on your face when you attempted to post evidence in support of your completely illogical and ahistorical point of view. An enemy of Christ can’t be expected to be logical so I guess you’ll never be so.
“Phhhht!”
That’s just about the brightest things you’ve posted all day.
The Text of a Sermon on Indulgences
by Johann Tetzel
What are you thinking about? Why do you hesitate to convert yourself? Why don’t you have fears about your sins? Why don’t you confess now to the vicars of our Most Holy Pope? Don’t you have the example of Lawrence, who, compelled by the love of God, gave away his inheritance and suffered his body to be burned? Why do you not take the example of Bartholomew, Stephen, and of other saints who gladly suffered the most gruesome deaths for the sake and salvation of their souls? You, however, do not give up great treasures; indeed you give not even a moderate alms. They gave their bodies to be martyred, but you delight in living well and joyfully. You priest, nobleman, merchant, wife, virgin, you married people, young person, old man, enter into your church which is for you, as I have said, St. Peter’s, and visit the most holy Cross. It has been placed there for you, and it always cries and calls for you. Are you perhaps ashamed to visit the Cross with a candle and yet not ashamed to visit a tavern? Are you ashamed to go to the apostolic confessors, but not ashamed to go to a dance? Behold, you are on the raging sea of the world in storm and danger, not knowing if you will safely reach the harbor of salvation. Do you not know that everything which man has hangs on a thin thread and that all of life is but a struggle on earth? Let us then fight, as did Lawrence and the other saints, for the day it is well, but ill tomorrow. Today alive and tomorrow dead.
You should know that all who confess and in penance put alms into the coffer according to the counsel of the confessor, will obtain complete remission of all their sins. If they visit, after confession and after the Jubilee, the Cross and the altar every day they will receive that indulgence which would be theirs upon visiting in St. Peter’s the seven altars, where complete indulgence is offered. Why are you then standing there? Run for the salvation of your souls! Be as careful and concerned for the salvation of your souls as you are for your temporal goods, which you seek both day and night. Seek the Lord while he may be found and while he is near. Work, as St. John says, while it it yet day, for the night comes when no man can work.
Don’t you hear the voices of your wailing dead parents and others who say, ‘Have mercy upon me, have mercy upon me, because we are in severe punishment and pain. From this you could redeem us with a small alms and yet you do not want to do so.’ Open your ears as the father says to the son and the mother to the daughter . . ., ‘We have created you, fed you, cared for you, and left you our temporal goods. Why then are you so cruel and harsh that you do not want to save us, though it only takes a little? You let us lie in flames so that we only slowly come to the promised glory.’ You may have letters which let you have, once in life and in the hour of death . . . full remission of the punishment which belongs to sin. Oh, those of you with vows, you usurers, robbers, murderers, and criminals - Now is the time to hear the voice of God. He does not want the death of the sinner, but that he be converted and live. Convert yourselves then, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, to the Lord, thy God. Oh, you blasphemers, gossippers, who hinder this work openly or secretly, what about your affairs? You are outside the fellowship of the Church. No masses, no sermons, prayers, sacraments, or intercession help you. No field, vineyard, trees, or cattle bring fruit or wine for you. Even spiritual things vanish, as many an illustration could point out. Convert yourself with all you heart and use the medicine of which the Book of Wisdom says, ‘The Most High has made medicine out of the earth and a wise man will not reject it.’
Source: W. Köhler, Dokumente zum Ablassstreit, pp. 125-26.
I love apologists like you Vlad. Too lazy to post anything factual or persuasive yourself!