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To: Cronos

The Catholic Church does not follow Augustine strictly. For this reason the Calvinists accuse theologians such as St.Thomas of being semi-Pelegians. There are, of course, Catholics are are closer to the Calvinists in this, to the point of being also Jansenists. The Irish Church got infected by this heresy, hence their puritanism.


889 posted on 12/07/2010 12:14:35 AM PST by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: RobbyS; Cronos; metmom
The Catholic Church does not follow Augustine strictly.

Does the Catholic Church follow the pantheon of Greece? You cited Heracles and Achilles in an earlier post to me. Do you believe either possessed, in your words, "half devinity?"

RobbyS, you'd do well to abandon your pagan beliefs and embrace Christ. Just sayin...

892 posted on 12/07/2010 12:22:11 AM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: RobbyS; Kolokotronis; kosta50; redgolum; Salvation; Quix
Good point -- I did not know that about the Irish and Jansenism. Though, after talking to EO's I begun to wonder if perhaps we in the Western Church are not too legalistic. Perhaps their way of saying "ok, let's not break down into the details of it, it's a mystery and let's be content with that" is a better approach?

On re-reading the CC on OS, I wonder if we both don't mean the same thing? While we do say "All men are implicated in Adam's sin,", we also say
By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.
and
Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
From ocf.org I read
Following the Holy Fathers, the Orthodox Church holds that when Adam sinned against God, he introduced death to the world. Since all men are born of the same human stock as Adam, all men inherit death. Death means that the life of every human being comes to an end (mortality); but also that death generates in us the passions (anger, hate, lust, greed, etc.), disease and aging.
and from orthodoxwiki
The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin they committed but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin. The consequences and penalties of this ancestral act are transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human is a descendant of Adam then 'no one is free from the implications of this sin' (which is human death) and that the only way to be freed from this is through baptism. While mortality is certainly a result of the Fall, along with this also what is termed "concupiscence" in the writings of St Augustine of Hippo -- this is the "evil impulse" of Judaism, and in Orthodoxy, we might say this is our "disordered passion." It isn't only that we are born in death, or in a state of distance from God, but also that we are born with disordered passion within us. Orthodoxy would not describe the human state as one of "total depravity" (see Cyril Lucaris however).

"Very few Greek Fathers dealt with the destiny of infants who die without Baptism because there was no controversy about this issue in the East. Furthermore, they had a different view of the present condition of humanity. For the Greek Fathers, as the consequence of Adam's sin, human beings inherited corruption, possibility, and mortality, from which they could be restored by a process of deification made possible through the redemptive work of Christ. The idea of an inheritance of sin or guilt - common in Western tradition - was foreign to this perspective, since in their view sin could only be a free, personal act. . ."

"Alone among the Greek Fathers, Gregory of Nyssa wrote a work specifically on the destiny of infants who die, De infantibus praemature abreptis libellum. The anguish of the Church appears in the questions he puts to himself: the destiny of these infants is a mystery, 'something much greater than the human mind can grasp'.
We all have much to learn from each other (and yes "each other" includes our Christian Protestant brethern)
902 posted on 12/07/2010 2:34:03 AM PST by Cronos (Et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis (And the word was made flesh, and dwelt amonst us))
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To: RobbyS; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
The Catholic Church does not follow Augustine strictly.

The Catholic church shouldn't be following Augustine at all. It should be following Jesus.

1,385 posted on 12/08/2010 5:51:27 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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