Was Mary Sinless?

The Aristophrenium ^ | 12/05/2010 | " Fisher"

[donmeaker]

I nominate Deuteronomy 6.2 for the reference to the Trinity.

If G-d was a Trinity, or was not a Trinity, how would you act differently?

“The things of G-d are unknown, and unknowable, so why argue?” The Buddha

[Grizzled Bear]

Racism? Elitism?

Care to post the evidence supporting THOSE accusations?

Metmom,

Freedumb pulled a Willie Green. When Willie called me an "anti urban/anti rail bigot," it was supposed to shut down the arguement.

Freedumb,

This is a question. I'm asking a question because I can't read your mind and certainly won't try to.

Is your arguement so weak and without merit that you must resort to the race card?

How "progressive."

[Kolokotronis]

"If Jesus couldn’t be born of a sinful mother because He would have been *tainted* by her original sin, how could Mary have been born sinless of sinful parents without being *tainted* by THEIR original sin?"

As you may know, m-mom, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians, who certainly take no back seat to the Latins when it comes to veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos, do not subscribe to the innovative and modern Latin Church dogma of the Immaculate Conception. This is a doctrine whose dogmatic status was declared by no Ecumenical Council but rather by a 19th century pope, not to fight a heresy as all the other real dogmas to that point were, but for other reasons apparently sufficient to him.

While no Orthodox Christian accepts this doctrine, some of us believe that it is positively heretical as a denial of the dual nature of Christ (True God and True Man)as declared by the 4th Ecumenical Council held at Chalcedon in 451 AD. If the Most Holy Theotokos was ontologically different from all the rest of mankind by being born without the tendencies to sinfulness we all carry as a result of the Sin of Adam, then she was not a human being, she was a "goddess" and her Son was not True Man.

This whole notion that she had to be "pure" or "without the stain (Macula) of Original Sin" is, it has been argued, driven by the fundamentally flawed Manichean notions of Blessed Augustine (whose Greek was not good at all and so he was cut off from the writings of the Greek Fathers) about "Original Sin". That whole concept is outside the consensus of The Fathers and is rejected by Eastern Christians, but this flawed doctrine probably lies at the base of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

A number of the Fathers rejected this idea of the Immaculate Conception and some of the greatest theologians of the Latin Church did too. No less a figure than +Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor, denied it. It was essentially a doctrine developed by "Schoolmen" like Duns Scotus.

It is my understanding that many Protestants accept the Augustinian idea that man is utterly depraved. If so, then it stands to reason that such Protestants should immediately accept the Immaculate Conception doctrine since it strains credulity that God would be born out of depravity.

Once the West, including Protestants, accepted Blessed Augustine's non-patristic concept of Original Sin, all sorts of theological aberrations developed.

[Cronos]

LEt's go back to your post 31

bashing Mary by telling the truth about her.

To which I replied

oh and of course your group, 2000 years later has some secret knowledge that is contrary to what Early Christians believed, I guess?

Does your group have some gnostic knowledge to doubt that Mary was sinless?

Scripture does not explicitly say this just as it doesn't for the term "trinity", so no statement for or against, yet your group seems to have some kind of Gnostic, hidden knowledge to doubt this and which goes against what Early Christians believed in.

Strange that groups formed 2000 years after Christ doubt people who were there in Apostolic times.

Where exactly does Mary being sinless contradict scripture? Or does your Gnostic group believe it has esoteric knowledge denied to the rest of us? Isn't your group's caste-system a little too wacked out?

[Grizzled Bear]

Jesus doesn’t like His mom being dissed....anymore than you would like it if your mom was dissed.

Ann. If you say my mom isn't a virgin, you're dissing her. Why are you dissing my mom?

[Cronos]

Oh, you know these well, don't you red? :)

What is astonishing is that something like this has no impact on salvation (Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and even Presbyterians believe that Christ's sacrifice was super-sufficient for our salvation). We can better argue over other things.

[metmom]

Others’ posts.

I didn’t mean to imply that it was yours.

[metmom]

Since the Catholic church accepts *trinity* on proof texts without the word actually appearing in Scripture, why do they have such a problem accepting *sola Scriptura* from proof texts as well without the word actually appearing in Scripture?

[metmom]

Gotta go shovel. We’re getting buried.

Later.....

[ravenwolf]

WHAT sins did she commit?? LIES?? CHEATING??? CURSING?? MURDER??? Please tell me what sins she committed.....please tell us

---

And is God a liar?

Romans ch 3
23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Cronos]

We can learn from real believing Protestant groups and, sadly enough, from the mainstream Protestant groups mistakes (ECUSA, ELCA etc). For instance, to learn how the LCMS has been cautious in welcoming “refugees” from the ELCA by rigourously ensuring that these completely agree to the doctrines of the LCMS and don’t bring in ELCA’s liberal policies is something we should all take heed of.

[RnMomof7]

Thanks for making my point about flawed interpretations. Since Jesus was talking to (then-named) Simon and establishing him as Pope Peter ("Petros" and variants is the word for "rock" in almost all Latin and ME languages). There is Biblical support for the line of succession from Peter to the modern day Pope.

Where?

Not only is there no papacy in the NT church, there is not priesthood, no sacrifices..bloody or unbloody

The Scripture outlines what the NT church should look like, and the God given outline looks nothing like the Roman church

[starlifter]

You posted...”so if she every talked back to her mother, she would be an adulterer and murder and a thief.. just as we all are..”

Good taste - and rules for posting on Free Republic - prohibit me from saying what I really think about that post.

[ravenwolf]

I am a convert to the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. The Holy Spirit led me to the true church, the one that Christ Himself founded.

---

Where do the Bible say that?

[RnMomof7]

Good taste - and rules for posting on Free Republic - prohibit me from saying what I really think about that post.

That is what James said..do you have a problem with James?

[RnMomof7]

Yes, she is the anti-Eve - the possiblity of redemption of the entire human race entered the world through her by the grace of God. But if it curdles your cream to think about it, maybe you should just move on to some topic that doesn’t arouse such indignation and sniping and jealousy. When you meet her, ask her.

Where is that in the bible?

[Pyro7480]

This is a doctrine whose dogmatic status was declared by no Ecumenical Council but rather by a 19th century pope, not to fight a heresy as all the other real dogmas to that point were, but for other reasons apparently sufficient to him.

Actually, in the very last section of Ineffabilis Deus, Blessed Pius IX wrote this about what he hoped for with his declaration of the dogma:

...[I]n her who is the most excellent glory, ornament, and impregnable stronghold of the holy Church; in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers. We have, therefore, a very certain hope and complete confidence that the most Blessed Virgin will ensure by her most powerful patronage that all difficulties be removed and all errors dissipated, so that our Holy Mother the Catholic Church may flourish daily more and more throughout all the nations and countries, and may reign "from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth," and may enjoy genuine peace, tranquility and liberty. We are firm in our confidence that she will obtain pardon for the sinner, health for the sick, strength of heart for the weak, consolation for the afflicted, help for those in danger; that she will remove spiritual blindness from all who are in error, so that they may return to the path of truth and justice, and that here may be one flock and one shepherd.

So, in a sense, Blessed Pius was invoking her to fight all heresies.

[Cronos]

Reference — yes, there is plenty to prove it, however, our friend here the met may seem to wish for explicit quotation of a term for it to be viable.

[Cronos]

btw, isn’t that quote by Baha’ullah not Buddha?

[Cronos]

Thank you, do remember that

The Church teaching is that Christ's sacrifice is what won us our Salvation. Church teaching is that His sacrifice is super-sufficient for our salvation.

All for God, all by God -- Mary did NOT save herself, she needed salvation and got that from her God, her Son, her Savior. Jesus saved Mary, He was her savior. He saved her, protected her from sin.

This is Church teaching.