Posted on 12/03/2010 4:14:50 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is NO debate here: God's Word clearly points out who the mediator is between God and men: i.e., Christ Jesus
If you believe in God's Word, who is Christ Jesus: The Word of God, then 1 Timothy 2:5 will be easily be understood as Christ the mediator.
Sorry narses, but I try to restrict my dialog to mature adults who know how to defend their beliefs. Does “I am rubber, you are glue..........” come next?
On this thread? Good luck.
I have found this to be pretty typical behavior amongst Catholics who find themselves backed into a corner concerning their beliefs and cannot defend them. That is what they resort to.
What I find interesting in your decidedly one-sided discussions with those clinging in hope to the Roman Catholic Cartel, is that they spout off one set of "facts" and are quickly corrected by the "stupid Protestants" with actual documented teachings of the RCC. Its like the Protestants really know more about the Catholics than the Catholics, and that is because we actually care to know what the official Roman position is so we know what we are up against.
What happens though is that the Catholic will disagree with their leadership - most often in ignorance, and yet is shocked to discover that Rome really doesn't sound all that Biblical when Rome's positions are laid out in straight fashion. Unfortunately, the emotional baggage of hatred against Protestantism overcomes the realization that we just might be right and their chosen religion's understanding just seems so wrong, and so there is is this spiritual crisis in willingly forcing oneself to believe that which is manifestly untrue because Pride in being a Catholic is more important than knowing God for who He is.
Did I ever say she wasn't in heaven? Really? Where?
Everyone is alive somewhere after they die on this earth so the argument that people are alive in heaven justifying praying to them falls flat.
That does not give us leave to contact those who have died in their physical bodies. There are no instructions to pray like that.
On the contrary, when Jesus was asked by His disciples to pray, He told them this......
Luke 11:1-13 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples." And he said to them, "When you pray, say:
"Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."
And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him'; and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything'? I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
We have these tremendous teachings and promises from Jesus Himself about our prayers to God the Father being answered and you guys advocate to praying to mere created beings. Why? What are they going to do for you that God Himself won't?
Catholics regularly harangue Protestants about not putting the words of Christ Himself above the rest of Scripture, and not following the examples and teaching of Christ.
And yet we have here teaching that is clear and plain and to the point from Jesus Himself. Why do Catholics not follow it here like they exhort everyone else to elsewhere?
When they encounter Christians who enjoy a good discussion about Scripture they're lost.Or there are threads like this - filled with bigotry, lies and "gotchas". No honesty, no charity and outright lies. By the same few loud liars that trot from thread to thread pretending to be Christian while acting as Liars and agents for the Father of Lies. Vicar here is a good example of that behavior, as has been your claims about the state of my soul. To quote the one note bigot that started this thread, "There is NO debate here:..." - Simply bigotry on parade.
OK so you concede that Mary is alive and in Heaven, no?
Once in all that drivel.
What about all that they are asking Mary specifically to do FOR them. The prayers, and many like them, are TO her FOR things.
Or doesn't that count?
Count as what? Requests? We cannot ask the Mother of God to help us?
Wow ... this thread is alarming. During one of the holiest times of the year, Christians behaving like non-Christians toward one another. Sad, really.
At this time, I am offering up a prayer for all of the participants on this thread that they will treat one another with love ... even in disagreement.
God bless you all and have a very Merry Christmas.
“We cannot ask the Mother of God to help us?”
Wow! That sounds like twisted Mormon theology to me.
Some of us do.....
It's also because many of us were raised Catholic and remember well what we were taught, and when we're told that we were *poorly catechized* we can go back to the Catechism of the Catholic church and provide evidence of what the RCC really teaches.
We remember - much to the typical Catholic's dismay.
She is alive IN heaven. I don’t have any doubt about that.
But Judas is alive in hell.
Everyone who has died on this earth in their physical body is alive somewhere.
The prohibition against contacting those who have died here on earth has never been lifted or amended. It never said not to contact only those who have died here on earth in their physical bodies who we think went to hell. It never says that we are permitted to contact those who have died here on earth in their physical bodies who we think are in heaven.
Give us one specific verse in Scripture where we are commanded, or even permitted, to pray to those who have died here on this earth and preceded us into heaven.
I suppose if you want, you can ask. But it isn't going to do any good. There's nothing in Scripture that tells us that anyone in heaven besides God has power to hear or answer our prayers.
Where are we commanded to do that?
Why should we do it in light of how Jesus Himself taught us to pray in the Lord's Prayer passages.
What is she going to do for us that God Himself can't or won't?
What “prohibition” are you claiming exists (and therefore damns to hell all Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and others who actually follow Our Lord)?
“There’s nothing in Scripture that tells us that anyone in heaven besides God has power to hear or answer our prayers.”
Really? And your authority for that astounding claim is?
>> the only one praying for us in heaven is the Holy Spirit and Christ. <<
Source, please?
>> No one else alive or dead can know the thoughts or hearts of men. <<
That’s why we PRAY, not just think.
>> There is a great speration between those in heaven and us. If one thinks they are seeing a spirit. <<
That great divide, if you are alluding to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, is between Heaven and Hell, not Heaven and Earth. In fact, Jacob, Elijah, Moses, Enoch, John, and several others crossed between Earth and Heaven, as do the angels.
Revelations is quite explicit that there exist souls in Heaven, watching the events on Earth below, and praying to God.
We do. Frequently. But the bible tells us that our prayers are more powerful when joined in unison.
Really? How so?
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