[greyfoxx39]

Author Alan Rock Waterman

Carmichael, California

"I've had a lifelong interest in what the early Latter-day Saints understood to be the "pure theology" of The Restoration, unfiltered by many of the common assumptions prevalent among a majority of modern Mormons today.

In Joseph Smith's time, a teaching was accepted as valid only if obtained through divine revelation from God. Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture."

I've been further intrigued by warnings of the falling away of the latter-day saints in our day as foretold in the Book of Mormon, and this blog was created as a forum for discussing some of the possible signs of that prophesied derailment."

[greyfoxx39]

Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources among others, that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.

 

FROM THE RELIGION FORUM MODERATOR:

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Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.

Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.

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 Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.

 

[DannyTN]

Wow

[svcw]

Vanishing lds Church......? No way, we read on FR nearly daily how lds is the fastest growing church group in the history of the universe. I mean just ten years ago there were 60K missionaries and now there are 52K. Ok, that's not a good example. But hey, they are building malls, and buildings all over the world and gathering members at a rate of 1% a year 2010 and just 20 years ago it was at a rate of growth of 2% a year. Humm that's not a good example either. Wait I got it, the over all growth rate has been 1.5% average over the last 25 years, with only 1.4% of that being babies born into lds. Ok thats better at least its growth.

[Alex Murphy]

What we think of as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, says Smith, operates today as a mere trademark of the corporation that owns the name to it. The actual church that used to go by that name, and which claims Jesus Christ as its head, does not exist today in any legally recognized form.

This should be an interesting thread. Ping to read later.

[webheart]

I found the subject to be interesting enough to merit reading the article. I got about three screen pages down, then scrolled the rest to see how long it was going to be. I really wanted to read more, but couldn’t.

I find it very difficult to read anything more than 6 paragraphs long where the author bolds, italicizes, increases the font size, indents and otherwise frequently emphasizes different parts of the text which the author somehow thinks are more important than the rest.

If the subject is interesting, the formatting changes are unnecessary. I would prefer a little more brevity and some conistency in the formatting. All of the format changes are distracting and frustrating. It takes away from the credibility of the author, and makes him look like a kook.

If emphasis is needed, it should be applied to passages that are truly revelatory, and sparingly.

[Logophile]

For a different take on church incorporation, I recommend Baptist Legal Update: Should Churches Be Incorporated?

[Colofornian]

From the article: Also written into the charter of the Corporation of the President as amended was how the line of succession was to operate within the Church. In order for there to be no question as to who held the purse strings following the death of the president (the “Sole” in a ”Sole Corporation”), the Senior Apostle automatically becomes the next president of the Corporation. You thought somehow God maneuvered certain chosen men into these callings over the years so that they would one day be at the head of the line at the exact moment when God was ready to call them as the next prophet? You are so naïve.

Lds, Inc.
With a charter (not God)
which (not WHO) determines who the next "prophet" will be...

Yeah. I could just imagine it. God establishes a "corporate sole" charter where Elisha takes over for Elijah...except that they were actually "co-prophets" for about a decade...imagine that...

Or God "charters" Hosea and his prostitute wife to "take over" the prophet mantle from Amos...except that they were "co-prophets" for about a decade...hmm...imagine that...

Or God "charters Micah to assume the prophet mantle from Isaiah...except that they were contemporary "co-prophets" for about half-a-century...hmm...imagine that...

Or God "charters" Habbakuk to relieve Zephaniah as prophet"...except that Zephaniah, Habakkuk and Jeremiah were contemporary for almost 20 years -- and Jeremiah & Nahum likewise for over a decade...

[And Samuel and Nathan were simultaneous prophets for about 50 years...and 1 Kings mentions 100 true prophets alive at the same time!)

Just goes to show that the Mormon church isn't a "restoration" of ANYTHING biblical. Lds Inc. has foisted an outright lie upon their people -- and have told them to "cough up" 10% to the corporate coffers.

Despite Hebrews 1:1-2, Mormons have been told that Jesus can't speak directly to His Church on earth...even though the writer of Hebrews clearly says that in the past God spoke through prophets...now He speaks through His Son, the Living Revelation of God!

Why has Lds Inc. bumped Jesus Christ out of the picture as the Church's one Living Prophet?
Why has Lds Inc. silenced Him?
Can He not speak directly any more?

I mean it's downright hypocritical for the Lds Church to insist that God only gives one "prophet" to the church, and then to systematically exclude mention of Jesus Christ as continuing to be THAT SINGLE Living Prophet...meaning...that the Lds church has replaced Him!

Even though MANY of the Old Testament prophets were contemporaries of each other (God speaking through more than one prophet at a time), Lds Inc. "told" God that He can't do that any more -- they have shut the mouths of God speaking through more than a single prophet.. and what's worse, unlike what Heb. 1:1-2 clearly says -- that Jesus is our everlasting "prophetic" voice we hear (see John 10)...Mormons say "no" -- we've shut up Jesus' voice as well...and we ONLY hear in a church body where "ONLY here is the Lord’s prophet."

[Colofornian]

From the article: The Mormon people, you see, had untapped value: a sense of community, a uniquely productive work ethic, and best of all, a built-in propensity to be obedient to authorities. These Mormons were made to order. The Mormon leaders offered up the future tithes of the Mormon people as guarantees against their investments. The members of what used to be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be unwitting cash cows for the benefit of their leaders. And the leaders of what used to be that church were now climbing into bed with the whore of Babylon.

"Unwitting cash cows?" Unwitting bank account feeder dupes.

Gullibles.

(Give us 10% of your income & that's your temple ticket. Your temple ticket is your freeway to godhood.)

Q What god would attach a ticket voucher you have to pay for to live with him forever?

A Only the Mormon god!

You see, Mormons essentially say that well over 99.x% of people who've ever lived and are living will live with Father-God forever. (That's reserved for married temple Mormons who jump through all the rest of perfectionist, legalistic, ritualistic Mormon hoops!!)

Other Mormons need not apply.

Singles need not apply.

Non Mormons need not apply.

If you want a new "god job" Lds Inc. is assigning to colonies around the universe, you need to become a member in the infamous White Boys Club of Lds, Inc. (Oh, well, they started accepting black members 32 years ago -- when Mitt Romney was a tithing temple Mormon at age 30...but guess what % of their membership is black?)

[Paragon Defender]

Another fantasy thread by the anti-Mormon activist gang on FR. /yawn

[MHGinTN]

Should we ping Resty, since she likes to use the following clause so often to insult the Inmans?... "Today, much of what passes for doctrine among my fellow Saints appears to contain "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture."

[yellowroses]

Thanks for the interesting link.

He sounds like a pretty determined individual.....

[Elsie]

[Elsie]

I take it that some critics have not read the Book of MORMON!

I started reading a paragraph and found it both humorous and very insightful, but the sentences were likewise extremely long. The entire book reads like this. Also, I'm well educated but I needed a dictionary frequently while reading this book. There were a few words in other languages tossed in as well. While reading, I didn't feel like getting up to go use an internet translator, so I missed a bit of the meaning at times. Overall, this book will require commitment if you're going to finish it. This book begins by explaining that it has been written by the author's evil twin, who has a very verbose and irritating writing style. True to these promises, the book was overly verbose- sometimes to the point of being quite painful- and some sections were difficult to understand due to the writing style. The style for the first several pages, with the computer plot, was so difficult that this section was almost impossible to follow. After that it improved somewhat. I found myself reading like an editor and identifying on nearly every page changes that could have been made that would have preserved the quirky style while making the book much more readable. I think the author would probably say that limited readability was often his intent, however, I got the sense that there were some areas in which there was less readability than he intended.

Samuel Clemens did!

All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few, except the elect have seen it or at least taken the trouble to read it.

I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me.

It is such a pretentious affair and yet so slow, so sleepy, such an insipid mess of inspiration.

It is chloroform in print.

 

 

http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/

---

 

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY

CHAPTER 16

 

The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.

 

 

 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ^ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the ^bguilty taketh the ^ctruth to be hard, for it ^dcutteth them to the very center.

  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might ^awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.

  5 And it came to pass that they did ^ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.

  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the ^avalley which he called Lemuel.

  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the ^adaughters of Ishmael to ^bwife; and also, my brethren took of the ^cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also ^dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the ^acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.

  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ^ajourney into the wilderness.

  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ^aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one ^bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.

  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take ^aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.

  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.

  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place ^aShazer.

  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the ^aRed Sea.

  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, ^aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.

  16 And we did follow the ^adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.

  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.

  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine ^asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did ^amurmur against the Lord.

  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their ^asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto ^acomplaining against the Lord their God.

  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did ^amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my ^bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

  24 And it came to pass that he did ^ainquire of the Lord, for they had ^bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.

  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly ^achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.

  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were ^awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.

  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the ^afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.

  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us ^aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by ^bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.

  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the ^adirections which were given upon the ball.

  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild ^abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.

  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained ^afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.

  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.

  34 And it came to pass that ^aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called ^bNahom.

  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did ^amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did ^cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.

  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to ^areturn again to Jerusalem.

  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us ^aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our ^bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.

  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that ^aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman ^bstir up their hearts to ^canger.

  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did ^achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY

CHAPTER 16

 

The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.

 

 

 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ^ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the ^bguilty taketh the ^ctruth to be hard, for it ^dcutteth them to the very center.

  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might ^awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.

  5 And it came to pass that they did ^ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.

  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the ^avalley which he called Lemuel.

  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the ^adaughters of Ishmael to ^bwife; and also, my brethren took of the ^cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also ^dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the ^acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.

  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ^ajourney into the wilderness.

  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ^aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one ^bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.

  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take ^aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.

  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.

  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place ^aShazer.

  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the ^aRed Sea.

  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, ^aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.

  16 And we did follow the ^adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.

  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.

  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine ^asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did ^amurmur against the Lord.

  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their ^asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto ^acomplaining against the Lord their God.

  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did ^amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my ^bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

  24 And it came to pass that he did ^ainquire of the Lord, for they had ^bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.

  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly ^achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.

  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were ^awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.

  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the ^afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.

  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us ^aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by ^bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.

  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the ^adirections which were given upon the ball.

  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild ^abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.

  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained ^afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.

  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.

  34 And it came to pass that ^aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called ^bNahom.

  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did ^amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did ^cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.

  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to ^areturn again to Jerusalem.

  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us ^aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our ^bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.

  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that ^aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman ^bstir up their hearts to ^canger.

  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did ^achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.