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To: chesley; olezip
And as I said, the proof that someone is a Christian is that they start to do good. But it is not necessary.

Nonsense, our Lord made it very clear that it is absolutely necessary. In fact, NOWHERE in the Bible does it suggest that it is not necessary. The words "justified" and "saved" ARE NOT synonymous.

The Bible has to be interpreted as a whole, and the more specific verses determine the meaining of the less specific verses.

Yes, and that is why our Lord left His Church to interpret the Bible.

Otherwise, the interppretation resembles that of US judges who use the commerce clause to overrule every clause limited the federal goverminment.

You mean like the fact that the heresy known as "sola scriptura" has been causing groups to splinter almost from day one?

I consider that the verses specifically stating that we are saved by faith, not works to be the more specific.

It's faith AND works, not one or the other.

But perhaps you should consider if you are wrong, and have to do the same.

Thankfully, I have the Church and not my own fallible interpretations.

87 posted on 11/30/2010 12:28:47 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
You mean like the fact that the heresy known as "sola scriptura" has been causing groups to splinter almost from day one?

So? People have been splintering from the Catholic Church for 2000 years. There were various heresies, let's see, the Gnostics, Montanism, Arianism, Nestorianism. Then the Orthodox split. Or did Rome split from them? I'm not sure.

Then Luther and Henry VIII, of course. Some Baptists claim that they have been here all along. I sorta like that view, it's called "Landmarkism". Even though evidence seems to be thin on the ground. Islam is considered by many to be originally a Christian heresy, although I would think that it would be from Orthodoxy rather than Rome. Then there are the sects that sort of split from Protestantism that cannot be considered doctrinally sound. The Mormons, the Jehovah's witnesses, etc. The Protestants don't claim them and neither do the Catholics. Can some of them be saved? I don't know, I rather think it would be hard, but acceptance of Christ as Savior is the key. Every thing else is important, but not necessary. And not adequate

then there are numerous recent splits from the RCC. The Old Catholics, Mel Gibson's father's group, the feminist priests, the liberation theology theologians, etc. I'll admit the RCC has done a fantastic job with them lately, but will it always be so? the politics make it seem that eventually there will be a split between the modernists and the traditionalists, and the modernists may get the Vatican. Who knows?

Anyway, wagglebee, you are a good guy. I have followed you ping lists with much interest and agreement. But we are just going to have to disagree on this issue. Go with Christ, brother.

107 posted on 11/30/2010 1:35:25 PM PST by chesley (Eat what you want, and die like a man.)
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